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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

TheTigerMaster said:
Removing stops to allow for faster trains won't necessarily lead to faster trip times, because of two factors

Loading (dwell) times: Say you remove half the stations on the line. Each of the remainding stations will now have twice as many passengers boarding, and twice the dwell time in station. (Example is a simplification)

Bus travel time: Increase stop spacing from 1 km to 2 km, and speeds on the train might increase from 40 km/h to 60 km/h. But people now need to spend another 15 minutes walking or 5 minutes on the bus to get to the station. You've now made total trip times longer by removing stations.
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Sure. You're right. fewer stops won't necessarily guarantee shorter travel times. I would always advocate access first before express. I like the Crosstown stop spacing for the most part, because we are talking about a dramatic increase in travel range/time for those near the line.

However, you can't deny that a second line 1 that only stopped at North York, Eglinton, Bloor, Dundas, and Union would be faster for the 60% of riders who only need those stops.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Subways are not as fast as people imagine.

Most of Line 2, the trains rarely go faster than about 40 km/k. Average speeds are less than 30 km/h.

Line 4, which is totally straight and has wide stop spacing, also has average speeds of less than 30 km/h.

The average speeds of the downtown YUS are even slower; perhaps slower than in-median light rail transit.
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The average speed of Line 2 is about 31 kph, Line 4 is 36 kph. I read it in one of the TTC docs, don't remember the source now.

Downtown YUS is slow; indeed, it may be slower than the new LRT lines. Though, the close stop spacing on the downtown YUS exists for a good reason; all stations are heavily used.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Removing stops to allow for faster trains won't necessarily lead to faster trip times, because of two factors

Loading (dwell) times: Say you remove half the stations on the line. Each of the remainding stations will now have twice as many passengers boarding, and twice the dwell time in station. (Example is a simplification)

Bus travel time: Increase stop spacing from 1 km to 2 km, and speeds on the train might increase from 40 km/h to 60 km/h. But people now need to spend another 15 minutes walking or 5 minutes on the bus to get to the station. You've now made total trip times longer by removing stations.
Click to expand...

The impact of the increased stop spacing depends on the ratio of local riders to those transferring from the connecting routes.

For local riders, frequent stops are preferable as they spend less time walking to the stop.

But if the line serves a lot of riders who transfer from the connecting routes, then the majority of riders will prefer wider spacing because that will make their trip faster. Transfer occurs at the major intersections, where the stop would exist anyway.
 
Rainforest said:
The average speed of Line 2 is about 31 kph, Line 4 is 36 kph. I read it in one of the TTC docs, don't remember the source now.

Downtown YUS is slow; indeed, it may be slower than the new LRT lines. Though, the close stop spacing on the downtown YUS exists for a good reason; all stations are heavily used.
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The planned average service speeds terminal-to-terminal are as follows

Line 2: 29.8 km/h
Line 3: 28.5 km/h
Line 4: 29.8 km/h
Line 1: 28.6 km/h

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service Summary_2016-01-03.pdf
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
The planned average service speeds terminal-to-terminal are as follows

Line 2: 29.8 km/h
Line 3: 28.5 km/h
Line 4: 29.8 km/h
Line 1: 28.6 km/h

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Service Summary_2016-01-03.pdf
Click to expand...

For comparison, the service speed of Eglinton LRT is planned at:

Ellesmere to Kennedy: ???
Kennedy to Laird (surface LRT): 22 km/h
Laird to Mt Dennis (underground LRT): 35 km/h
Mt Dennis to Renforth: (surface LRT): 31 km/h

Note that the underground LRT is expected to be 35 km/h, which is faster than any existing subway line. I personally am doubtful of that, since the TTC hasn't gotten above 30 km/h on similar sections on other subways. But Eglinton Line will have the fewest passengers per station of any line, so dwell times should be shorter than other lines.

Also note that the Mt. Dennis to Renforth surface LRT is also expected to be faster than any of our subways. This section is currently being redesigned to allow for additional speed, so we'll hopefully see it reach 35 km/h.
 
44 North said:
I guess the takeaway is that the "light" vehicles are actually heavier than the "heavy" vehicles. This isn't a surprise seeing that 'light' tends to refer to the level of infrastructure used on the line, and not the actual vehicle weight.
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Light Rail and heave rail vehicles don't relly have much to do with the vehicle it's actually about the rail stock they run on. LRT/ Streetcars run on a lighter type of rail then subways and trains do.
 
That is the kind of speed that the Eglinton East and Finch lines should be striving for.

Improved transit will make the travel for current users slightly faster, more comfortable, and more reliable. Certainly all great things but only RAPID transit will get new riders. Only speed will be enough to get potential riders to leave their cars at home.
 
Maybe Eglinton Crosstown has too many stations. On the other hand, the majority of line 1&2 stations are spaced <800 m apart, and some are as close as 300 m. It's only rapid by comparison to the suffocating traffic that plagues our city.

How to get drivers out of their cars in Toronto? While many people have different reasons to drive, I would bet that most Torontonians would prefer not to drive, but have no other choice. Did you know York Region sends 108 000 people to work in Toronto everyday? How many of them are taking Go Transit of YRTC/TTC for $14 round trip, cycling, or walking? What about the 60 000 Torontonians who work in York Region? Unfortunately, this is everybody's problem.

Anyway, if Eglington has shortcomings, I don't think its the fault of the LRV technology. I agree we need some more express "rapid" transit, and just higher quality transit all-around. It's also got to be affordable, and cities ought to have better ways to raise funds for these projects. When does that HSR report come out? Perhaps a suburban stop at Kennedy?;)
 
RyLucky said:
Maybe Eglinton Crosstown has too many stations. On the other hand, the majority of line 1&2 stations are spaced <800 m apart, and some are as close as 300 m. It's only rapid by comparison to the suffocating traffic that plagues our city.
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The mistakes are Aga Khan, Hakimi-Lebovic and Ionview which are two blocks away from Don Mills, Warden and Birchmount respectively.

And they may replicate the mistake with the Crosstown West (Mulham, Eden Valley, Wincott, Lloyd Manor) and Crosstown East extensions (Falmouth, Mason, Kingston, West Hill).

I'm all for having a lot of stops but some just aren't all that necessary.
 
RyLucky said:
Maybe Eglinton Crosstown has too many stations. On the other hand, the majority of line 1&2 stations are spaced <800 m apart, and some are as close as 300 m. It's only rapid by comparison to the suffocating traffic that plagues our city.
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Close stop spacing is not a problem when those close stations are the busiest ones on the network. The only change on the Yong line is that maybe Rosedale could have been eliminated (and maybe Blythewood added).
B-D has too many extra stations to count.
Eglinton is designed as a local line and not rapid transit. With full grade-separation, or even crossing gates, the would have used rapid transit spacing of 800m to 1000m. With local transit, it makes sense to add extra stops. The purpose of ECLRT is not to get those from Etobicoke and Scarborough out of their cars, it is to give those who already take the bus a somewhat smoother ride.
 
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