Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

Certainly we have smart enough planners out there to build the SSE in a much more economical manner.

I've been reading this thread for weeks and held my peace. But with the recent news about the ridiculous escalation yet again with the SSE, and the non-stop horseshit coming out of certain Scarborough residues here, I've had all that I can take.

It's people like you, coffey1, that have seriously f**d up the entire transit picture in this city. Transit funding is a scarce and precious resource and when idiots like you speak up, and politicians like Rob Ford and now John Tory (who I used to admire) lap up your misplaced "anger", you have totally removed any intelligence, logic and rational thinking in the whole thing. This bullshit "woe is me" / attitude of alienation that many of you Scarbourough residents have has totally screwed up the entire picture for the whole city. We're all paying for your bullshit subway to nowhere and will do so for years and years.

Here's the bottom line:
The density and projected ridership for the SSE is not enough.
PLUS
The money cannot be found.
EQUALS (or should equal, in a rational world)
NO DAMN SSE.

SIMPLE. The rest of the world can figure it out, why can't you Scarberians?

"Urgency", "priority", "under-investment", "neglect", "being ignored", whatever the hell else you or your best bud Glen De Baermaker want to call it, all of this HAS NO PLACE IN TRANSIT PLANNING. Transit planning SHOULD ONLY CARE ABOUT density and travel patterns, and the money should be spent to best match that.

Money is PRECIOUS and to squander it YET AGAIN on a white elephant subway in this city is absolutely abominable. You will bankrupt us all, is that what you want?

Thanks for the kind words.

Ill be the first one to admit the SSE can be done much cheaper. But weve wasted time arguing technologies instead of investigating plans to provide seamless connections and bridge our suburbs. It doesn't have to be that expensive but Politics is being played.

The ridership is above what the majority of existing stops even now even after the biggest condo boom & people avoiding the RT like the plague. I would love to see them close down half of the so called "wastes" shut down to save me precious commute time in the City.

The money can always be found if It's the cost of equity. You make it seem as if Toronto was of density since the beginning of time. The reason they have density is because of transit and planning around it. Not vice versa. Scarborough does not have a density problem. We have a Political problem.

Mcguinty (thankfully) refused to fund Transfer City to being anything useful in the Miller days, Metrolinx took the UTSC - SMLRT off the next wave (approx. 100 year radar), and McGuinty even cut Sheppard back from Meadowvale. Ford basically tapped into the obvious disgust for this disrespectful plan. Clearly you liked it but us idiots DONT.

I really hope you don't live near a privileged transit riding throwing out such personal vile towards transit riders that don't. STC and "Subway to nowhere" DO NOT go together. But ill name a few stops that could be much more applicable to this effort at propaganda BS.

And It's not technology its the implementation and design. Eglinton LRT to UTSC is a properly designed route. SLRT and Sheppard LRT are sad attempts to hack in Scarborough.

You may think its acceptable but I don't by any stretch and I would argue its this "half assed" design is what F'd up Toronto transit planning by those that didn't bother to listen. Now were all paying the price of this division.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

It's people like you, coffey1, that have seriously f**d up the entire transit picture in this city.

No... your government is responsible!

 

[Rainforest]

Originally this discussion was about how willing Scarborough residents wish to see their taxes rise for their pet project. With Ford getting 50% of the vote and Tory getting almost 2/3rds of the remaining vote under the same BS austerity platform, I think it's safe to say that Scarborough voters want overbuilt transit and have no interest in paying for any of it.

Well, 50% of them voted for the Fords who expressly voted for SSE and the property surtax needed to pay for it, just a few months before. Furthermore, 35% of them voted for Tory who too supported SSE and the property surtax.

If they did not want the property surtax, they would vote for Chow.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I think it's safe to say that Scarborough voters want overbuilt transit and have no interest in paying for any of it.

Funny how you label everyone in Scarborough the same way

 

[coffey1]

It's people like you, coffey1, that have seriously f**d up the entire transit picture in this city.

No... your government is responsible!

Well, 50% of them voted for the Fords who expressly voted for SSE and the property surtax needed to pay for it, just a few months before. Furthermore, 35% of them voted for Tory who too supported SSE and the property surtax.

If they did not want the property surtax, they would vote for Chow.

It's OK just like the media some just throw sht on the wall and hope something sticks so they can beat it like a dead horse instead of looking at all the facts. Ill take the blame though as long as we get some integrated transit in return

 

[Rainforest]

No one from Scarborough has ever managed to show anything that proves that Scarborough is short changed from either a capital or an operational perspective. It probably requires investment, and I hope it is one that pays off, both in dollars and cents and, you know, you losing that chip on your shoulder, but there is no proof, no set of studies, suggesting it is now, or historically, short changed.

Do you expect a 70-page report, with diagrams and tables? It is enough to look at the map and estimate the travel time from Scarborough neighborhoods vs other outer parts of 416 to realize that Scarborough is in the worst situation.

There is no deliberate neglect of Scarborough; the primary cause is simple geography. Yet, the city has some responsibility to build transit that mitigates the said geographical disadvantage.

Failing that, the city will have major difficulties funding any transit expansions.

 

[coffey1]

No one from Scarborough has ever managed to show anything that proves that Scarborough is short changed from either a capital or an operational perspective.
.

Surely you need something to operate first & to build what others have in the City you need the capital Keep arguing that point it'll do great things for the health of the overall City

~

 

[Rainforest]

Why not consider the Gatineau Hydro Corridor. It is wide enough. Also the portion of the subway extension through the corridor we can keep it on the surface until we reach Scarborough General Hospital. We can save the cost of tunneling in this section. Why ignore this big empty piece of land? Just because its owned by the province doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and work out a deal with the province on usage of this corridor. Also this presents a great opportunity for Transit-oriented-Development.

I don't know for sure, but there may be two issues:

1) Toronto Hydro may be unhappy about adding rail to their corridor, as it will be harder for them to service the transmission lines.
2) The need to transition from the surface to tunnel in the Lawrence / McCowan area, where both roads cross Highland Creek.

Unfortunately, hydro corridors are rarely compatible with Transit-Oriented development (although there are a few exceptions, such as Sentinel Dr / Finch HC).

 

[crs1026]

That map doesn't point to Scarborough as being the least prosperous part of the city. It shows the old inner city, before gentrification, being less affluent in the 70's. Then there is an exodus - to the northwest, not to the east, until the early 90's. Then you have less affluent people moving to both the northeast and northwest, presumably because real estate values are heating up in the center.
The map looks worse than it may be, because it does not take account of density - it shows average values for the district, not quantified in terms of how many people living there. In fact, if you assume that Yonge-Avenue Road is our most dense area, it possibly shows that density and income are correlated. Rich people have to live cheek to jowl with other rich people?
York, East York, North Etobicoke, and western North York fared about the same as Scarboro. Note that the more affluent parts of Etobicoke were built long before amalgamation. Etobicoke had a very successful development strategy. Since amalgamation, it has been greatly screwed up by the new city - move over, Scarborough.
There is definitely a case to be made that the least privileged live at the remote edges, and therefore have the harshest commutes. That would tend to suggest that we need better transit in the extremities. A one-stop subway to STC won't fix that, whereas Transit City might have helped.

Sorry, it's just not supporting the theory that Scarborough is the last in line in this city.

- Paul

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

A one-stop subway to STC won't fix that, whereas Transit City might have helped.
- Paul

Transit City might have helped? That's not convincing.

 

[crs1026]

Transit City might have helped? That's not convincing.

Transit City would have put LRT much closer to more of those disadvantaged areas. It would have created more transit paths to more employment areas. (The poor don't work in those shiny towers down at King and Bay)

- Paul

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Transit City would have put LRT much closer to more of those disadvantaged areas. It would have created more paths to more employment areas. (The poor don't work in those shiny towers down at King and Bay)

- Paul

Actually several people up here (who you are referring to as the poor) work in many shiny towers. I keep reading a lot of generalizations about the people of Scarborough that are not true.

 

[coffey1]

Transit City would have put LRT much closer to more of those disadvantaged areas. It would have created more transit paths to more employment areas. (The poor don't work in those shiny towers down at King and Bay)

- Paul

The subway extension will make it easier to:
1. Attract satellite business between the shiny towers downtown and STC that the LRT wont do
2. Attract commuters to Scarborough Center as an attractive transit destination to live. Will help developers.
3. Be of greater accessibility to those coming in from LRT's in the areas you mentioned. Don't think the transit building stops at the SSE. That's a separate issue being addressed. The LRT network will be the feeder network into the backbone. (Could have been BRT but hey LRT is the tech of choice by the Province)

Yes many of us do work in those buildings but are forced to drive downtown or to GO for $15plus daily if they can afford. But you're right since it's like the amazing race on TTC for those that need it to get to work downtown, many of these commuters who would seek work downtown have fled over the years to places of investment.

 

[Towered]

I'm loving all the negative press on this proposed white elephant. John Tory has tried with all his might to be stubborn and support this extension (fearing the once mighty, and thankfully crushed, Ford Nation), but at some point even the ostrich has to pull its head out of the sand to avoid asphyxiation...

 

[WislaHD]

I'm loving all the negative press on this proposed white elephant. John Tory has tried with all his might to be stubborn and support this extension (fearing the once mighty, and thankfully crushed, Ford Nation), but at some point even the ostrich has to pull its head out of the sand to avoid asphyxiation...

It is just money being thrown away.

Some context is important. STC to Kennedy is a one stop 6km tunnel. 6km gets you from King Station to Davisville Station on the Yonge line. Scarberians will be in a tunnel for one stop that is longer in length than my entire subway commute. And they still have to travel the full length of the Danforth subway before transferring onto the Yonge line.

I really want us to move forward and investigate an above-ground route using the SRT corridor. I don't care if we have some engineering challenges with the surface route, they can be solved by throwing money at it. We have $2,800,000,000 to throw at those engineering challenges before it becomes more expensive than the one-stop subway.

But while we are wasting time with is, we are not addressing the funding needs of the subway line that will actually benefit Scarberians immensely. That is the Relief Line from downtown to Sheppard/Don Mills.