robmausser
Senior Member
In my alternate universe, Tory/the city would have partnered with QDPQ and the project would have minimal involvement with Metrolinx, just like the Montreal REM project has minimal involvement with AMT or STM.
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In my alternate universe, Tory/the city would have partnered with QDPQ and the project would have minimal involvement with Metrolinx, just like the Montreal REM project has minimal involvement with AMT or STM.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Like any sane person, I have some questions about Vaughan. But I still think they're actually trying, whereas Toronto has done very little to actually turn this subway into part of a larger intensification project. VMC is already seeing some decent construction and, yes, obviously there's already some stuff in Scarb, so Vaughan is playing catch-up. (The 2 subway corridors is a bit of hyperbole. Each only goes less than 5km into York Region. The subway "to Richmond Hill" goes into RH by like 200m. if it went up to the Moraine, I'd agree with you.)
I have zero problem with RT in Scarb and, as I said above, I was willing to go along with this subway as a compromise. At this point it's just been neutered and unjustifiable. At one stop there's too much pressure on the UGC to provide ridership growth and, per the city's own plans, they have no plans. I'm sure the market will do something there, but I doubt it's enough to make the investment wortwhile, nor enough to use it as a bat with which to swing at Vaughan. At best it will be the pot calling the kettle black.
44 North
Senior Member
I'm not really sure what I'm seeing further up (i.e VMC vs SCC pissing contest). To be clear we're comparing (almost entirely non-existent) development at VMC to SCC - the latter of which is a centre that has existed long before the concept of centres came to be, decades before the concept of P2G UGCs, that actually has the ingredients of a centre, that actually has high transit usage, that actually has thousands of residents and jobs and pedestrians and cyclists... Do most actually believe that VMC will add ~1,500 residents and ~1,000 jobs each year, every year, until 2031 - particularly when considering historical evidence and the area's clear and present drawbacks? And is it apt to compare something that exists on paper to something that actually exists?
There is quite a bit of development around SCC. The area is broken up into precincts, and the secondary plan can't be updated until a decision is made. Once that decision is made, I think it'd be pretty clear that development within 500m of SCC station (whether this station has SRT, SRT 2.0, S(L)RT, or SSE) will follow. Whether it's more or less than 2031 expectations is up for debate. Regardless, when it comes to the difference between the two UGCs I think it'd be more fair to look at 2016 numbers instead of theoretical 2031.
There is quite a bit of development around SCC. The area is broken up into precincts, and the secondary plan can't be updated until a decision is made. Once that decision is made, I think it'd be pretty clear that development within 500m of SCC station (whether this station has SRT, SRT 2.0, S(L)RT, or SSE) will follow. Whether it's more or less than 2031 expectations is up for debate. Regardless, when it comes to the difference between the two UGCs I think it'd be more fair to look at 2016 numbers instead of theoretical 2031.
coffey1
Active Member
Who wouldn't invest in an area the Government highly invests in with QUALITY designs? Vaughan has multiple well design highways, a fancy single technology BRT and a subway to its City Center on the way.
What has Toronto planned for Scarborough? Our Political climate keeps everything at a standstill with no real focus to make its suburbs a Priority or investment
-Scarborough Expressway killed. - Bye Bye Investment to this corridor
-Subway being chopped down to a joke and under serious attack- Slowy killing and pushing hope of investment for the time being
-Segregated LRT's routes with more unwanted transfers in the same direction - Not attractive to many current or future commuters and inconvenient
-LRT route carrying on a poor design through industrial areas and trying to justify this nonsense by extending to areas of need. Deterrent for business investors looking to set up a satellite hub or commuters looking at Scarborough as an attractive urban bedroom community with seamless transit to the core
Given Toronto's poor suburban public image which has been unfairly butchered through the media. Why wouldn't people invest right now? The City wont even invest to a high quality. A subway to STC and a feeder LRT network will help change the transit landscape drastically. We wouldn't allow highway to be built in Scarborough so we better build a properly integrated transit network and not a segregated LRT hack job.
Its clear to developers what Vaughan is trying to achieve. And the number one goal is building around QUALITY. STC makes as much or more sense than Vaughan to receive a subway stop to its Center. But QUALITY and Scarborough are not in Toronto's plan as of yet. Like all of us developers are confused in Scarborough's planning therefore they are waiting and have been waiting for clarity. In the 905 the word "Suburb" is a good thing to invest in and around. In Toronto it's considered a disease with no hope.
The LRT vs Subway debate as a "one size fits all " solution, the poor route design, the poor integration designs, has gone on too long. There has been little respect to effectively design & fund a network in Scarborough and there is no clear end in sight this mess with Tory's Smarttrack chaos.
Lets design, fund and build the SSE, DRL and feeder LRT network properly from the start. Enough trying to patch it in and cut corners in design. Build it right the first time and the City will have a much better future working together Politically and economically as a whole.
As for the Star, Metroland once again repeating a "7 stop LRT" solution doesn't make it the right choice and its been shot down for many good "facts". At this stage finding solutions to build the subway cheaper would still hold merit at this point but further exhausting a debate and looking to connected separate technologies to STC is not going to get us anywhere and needs to stop immediately. This will go on forever and lead us into further Political turmoil.
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I don't know why people talk about the line to Vaughan as if the only reason they built it is to connect Toronto to Vaughan. The main reason was to connect to York U. The extra two stops are gravy and certainly didn't cost $3 billion to build. I had no problem extending to Vaughan if that meant York U was finally connected.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
York Region did pay for the chunk of the capital, and wasn't there some discussion around how the province basically said take it to Vaughan or no deal? That pretty much tells you who to point the figure to.
AoD
AoD
ssiguy2
Senior Member
This is obscene.
The cheapest option has always been the best...........fix the SRT and extend it.
A couple hundred million to redo the tracks and extend the station lengths to 100 meters, build a new station at Danforth for better connection, and straighten out the sharp curve near Elsmere {although with the new articulated Innovia RT trains I don't even know that is even needed} and then extend the line.
For this kind of money they could extend the RT all the way downtown using the rail corridor at grade and elevated/underground when necessary. Show the Scarburians a mock up of a 100 meter new SkyTrain cars so that they know that they are not even remotely similar to the crates they are riding now. Tell them they can have service every 2 or 3 minutes with big modern trains, and instead of having to still transfer at Danforth and again at Yonge, they could have subway service from STC to downtown at a TTC fare.
Why don't you hold a plebiscite and ask the question or even just a couple polls after an extensive series of presentations and train examples so the people have a real understanding of what they would be getting as opposed to what the politicians with their agendas think? If you explain with example of the new trains and information about the huge decline in noise and vibration yet wider cars and doors and much brighter trains so they don't assume it's just going to be an extension of the relic you have now and detail how much faster they will get downtown than they will with a subway extension to Kennedy. Then simply ask the question...............do you want a one stop subway to Kennedy or for the same amount of money and regular fare, a subway from ST right to downtown with no transfers?
I think you would find the actual transit riders far more eager to have the RT than a one stop subway.
The cheapest option has always been the best...........fix the SRT and extend it.
A couple hundred million to redo the tracks and extend the station lengths to 100 meters, build a new station at Danforth for better connection, and straighten out the sharp curve near Elsmere {although with the new articulated Innovia RT trains I don't even know that is even needed} and then extend the line.
For this kind of money they could extend the RT all the way downtown using the rail corridor at grade and elevated/underground when necessary. Show the Scarburians a mock up of a 100 meter new SkyTrain cars so that they know that they are not even remotely similar to the crates they are riding now. Tell them they can have service every 2 or 3 minutes with big modern trains, and instead of having to still transfer at Danforth and again at Yonge, they could have subway service from STC to downtown at a TTC fare.
Why don't you hold a plebiscite and ask the question or even just a couple polls after an extensive series of presentations and train examples so the people have a real understanding of what they would be getting as opposed to what the politicians with their agendas think? If you explain with example of the new trains and information about the huge decline in noise and vibration yet wider cars and doors and much brighter trains so they don't assume it's just going to be an extension of the relic you have now and detail how much faster they will get downtown than they will with a subway extension to Kennedy. Then simply ask the question...............do you want a one stop subway to Kennedy or for the same amount of money and regular fare, a subway from ST right to downtown with no transfers?
I think you would find the actual transit riders far more eager to have the RT than a one stop subway.
coffey1
Active Member
Yes York region wants the best for its future. Crazy of them? Toronto and there transit "haves" wants Scarborough to stay an isolated "suburb".
We know who to point the finger at.
drum118
Superstar
The province said to take it to Vaughan as they saw a nice parking lot there to take cars off the road leading to the city core. Right from the mouth of the Ministy of Transportation.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
coffey1
Active Member
Ive got a longer list. But you are right they do perform.
Atleast someone acknowledged & tapped into the lack of municipal interest in growing Toronto's suburbs. Far too many people are tired of the false narratives through the Political media & neglect and 2nd class treatment municipality & lack of priority from all levels.
Amare
Senior Member
I'll just add this this point by saying, had the extension not gone up all the way up to Vaughan, the extension most likely never would have happened since the province essentially forced the TTC and city to do it and they wouldnt have funded it otherwise. I wont get into the details here, but essentially it had to do with a provincial cabinet member (Sorbara) and a federal cabinet member (Flaherty) making a nice deal.
As for the 1 stop extension; like many other things the city does, it doesnt make any sense whatsoever but that's exactly why this project will proceed as planned. The projects that make sense to proceed with ultimately get cancelled, and the ones that dont go ahead without a problem.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Council needs another rebellion; this time against Tory and his money wasting tendencies.
coffey1
Active Member
So the fight will be the Transit "Haves" & the Transit "Deprived" vs. the Middle man.
LoL. Popcorn ready. How about we fight for an integrated City so we can get along in the future & share similar challenges.
If Tory loosens up a bit more on Smarttrack to give Lawrence East a subway stop his LRT/SSE plan is still the best by far & that's really not saying much
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Yes, obviously one exists and the other doesn't. In both cases we're talking about what the future MIGHT hold.
But I've seen you comment on NYCC enough that I know even you will admit that Scarborough - AT BEST - is a mixed success. A fair person would probably say it has failed in its aims. If you go there and then to Yonge/Empress, the difference between a (relatively) successful, TOD centre and one that's basically a mall, an isolated civic centre and a bunch of towers is pretty stark.
Also, rather significantly, it has achieved this modest failure with existing RT. Yes, it needs to replaced, which is where a lot of this discussion is starting, but it's a pretty sad showing given what they already have. Given the rate towers are going up in VMC, pre-subway, it won't take them long to catch up.
As you know, I believe times have changed and lessons have been learned and there is no reason to think VMC cannot achieve its goals, at least to a degree and probably a greater degree than Scarborough has to date. The city's own planning documents show, in black and white, that they forsee no residential intensification and very little commercial intensification for Scarborough. We are replacing the existing line and serving what's there and, despite Duguid and others touting a fast-growing centre, not much else. And not only is it replacing the SRT, it's replacing a fully-funded LRT plan that was arguably more appropriate and more extensive, for a one-stop subway at greater cost. It's salt in the wound.
Oh, maybe they'll update their secondary plan just yet but I don't get why they had to wait. York Region, Vaughan, Markham and RH didn't. They were offered RT and got out in front of the ball. It's fine to be cynical or skeptical about how it will turn out but at a political and planning level they have schooled Toronto here.
At the end of the day, the projects are too different for any real tangible comparison but lots of people are citing it as another waste of money, like Vaughan. If you think Vaughan is a waste of money and subway to nowhere, I don't see how you can be any less upset about Scarborough. But even if you think Vaughan is a good idea, there's still reason to look askance at Scarborough.
It would be easier to take seriously if Tory et al seemed even somewhat perturbed by the ridership and cost projections but they literally seem like they don't care, since it's a fait accompli. The process should trouble people as much as, or even more than what the result might turn out to be 20 years from now.