44 North
Senior Member
This is obscene.
The cheapest option has always been the best...........fix the SRT and extend it.
A couple hundred million to redo the tracks and extend the station lengths to 100 meters, build a new station at Danforth for better connection, and straighten out the sharp curve near Elsmere {although with the new articulated Innovia RT trains I don't even know that is even needed} and then extend the line.
For this kind of money they could extend the RT all the way downtown using the rail corridor at grade and elevated/underground when necessary. Show the Scarburians a mock up of a 100 meter new SkyTrain cars so that they know that they are not even remotely similar to the crates they are riding now. Tell them they can have service every 2 or 3 minutes with big modern trains, and instead of having to still transfer at Danforth and again at Yonge, they could have subway service from STC to downtown at a TTC fare.
If we do decide to upgrade the SRT with improved rolling stock as per the original pre-TC plan, I think Bombardier should be excluded from bidding. And that we should steer clear from using proprietary things like LIM. There are a number of manufacturers that can build a train with the specs required, using standard third rail or catenary, and which can convert the decrepit SRT into a subway-like line capable of 20-25k pphpd. Probably faster, for less money, and more reliably than Bombardier.
Yes, obviously one exists and the other doesn't. In both cases we're talking about what the future MIGHT hold.
But I've seen you comment on NYCC enough that I know even you will admit that Scarborough - AT BEST - is a mixed success. A fair person would probably say it has failed in its aims. If you go there and then to Yonge/Empress, the difference between a (relatively) successful, TOD centre and one that's basically a mall, an isolated civic centre and a bunch of towers is pretty stark.
Also, rather significantly, it has achieved this modest failure with existing RT. Yes, it needs to replaced, which is where a lot of this discussion is starting, but it's a pretty sad showing given what they already have. Given the rate towers are going up in VMC, pre-subway, it won't take them long to catch up.
As you know, I believe times have changed and lessons have been learned and there is no reason to think VMC cannot achieve its goals, at least to a degree and probably a greater degree than Scarborough has to date. The city's own planning documents show, in black and white, that they forsee no residential intensification and very little commercial intensification for Scarborough. We are replacing the existing line and serving what's there and, despite Duguid and others touting a fast-growing centre, not much else. And not only is it replacing the SRT, it's replacing a fully-funded LRT plan that was arguably more appropriate and more extensive, for a one-stop subway at greater cost. It's salt in the wound.
Oh, maybe they'll update their secondary plan just yet but I don't get why they had to wait. York Region, Vaughan, Markham and RH didn't. They were offered RT and got out in front of the ball. It's fine to be cynical or skeptical about how it will turn out but at a political and planning level they have schooled Toronto here.
At the end of the day, the projects are too different for any real tangible comparison but lots of people are citing it as another waste of money, like Vaughan. If you think Vaughan is a waste of money and subway to nowhere, I don't see how you can be any less upset about Scarborough. But even if you think Vaughan is a good idea, there's still reason to look askance at Scarborough.
It would be easier to take seriously if Tory et al seemed even somewhat perturbed by the ridership and cost projections but they literally seem like they don't care, since it's a fait accompli. The process should trouble people as much as, or even more than what the result might turn out to be 20 years from now.
York Region never schooled Toronto on anything, doubt they ever will. Nor are they more transit-oriented, better at smart growth, more urban, or whatever claim you've made before. You said there's no development at Scarb Centre, "ZERO" to be correct. That's not true. But I fully agree and am well aware SCC was not a success as envisioned, no arguments there. But I also agree that the very same fate is possible for VMC (yes, even with a subway). I can read all the puffery and self-congratulatory claims in the world, but this isn't 2008 anymore and I no longer believe them the way I used to.
For all SCC's faults, I think it will put VMC to shame. Obviously that's my opinion, but just the absolute massiveness of industrial area it's plonked in makes the older area around SCC look downright urban in comparison; roadways are spec'd to this massiveness; nearest residents are 2km away with few or any sidewalks; current ped/cycle counts for Jane/7 are virtually nonexistent; existing transit usage very low; the decision to keep transmission lines along 7 to save a few $Mil; lack of major civic buildings or general centre anchors...
Then there are other issues that cause skepticism. How many farm fields is Scarb paving over? How many auto-centric subdivisions are they building? How many hectares of protected or environmentally-sensitive Greenbelt are Scarb pols trying to redesginate for more outward growth? I notice you've brought up TO's decision to improve 2km of the Gardiner as why our city is non-urban and dysfunctional, but seldom do I hear about York Region pushing for a 427 extension or 413. Or that they've pressed Mlinx to extend Line 1 up to Wonderland.
tl;dr I'm not a supporter of SSE, and frequently tout the benefits of subway alternatives that offer similar service and capacity (but w/ lower per km costs)...much like the SRT/S(L)RT. But I grasp the politics behind the SSE decision, know that it had considerable local demand, and believe that previous precedents like tunneling to an undeveloped VMC caused people to wonder why something similar couldn't be built to a developed and transit-using SCC.
What I find odd in the anti-SSE debate however is that many supportive of a mode like the SRT/S(L)RT only support it when it's in Scarboro. The mere mention of building something similar elsewhere brings insults, derision, cries that such a mode is insufficient (particularly when connecting a UGC), that trains can't operate in snow, that it hinders development, that transfers are unjustifiable, or that fully grade-separated light rail lines simply don't exist. If these points are believed to be true, then by default wouldn't these same people fully support SSE?