Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[ShonTron]

I'd support this, and I would love if the city gave this as a routing option for us to weigh its benefits. In case you weren't aware this alignment actually is a former rail line (Canadian Northern Railway). One issue though is that since it was obliterated and developed decades ago, the City/TTC would have to obtain subsurface property rights from all the homeowners along the route. However, since the subway would only travel under the backyards, and not the buildings themselves, this could be possible I think. So yeah, the alignment is there, and it's a straight shot from Kennedy Stn to McCowan. It should be looked at imo.

There are a number new detached houses and townhouses built in the CNoR right of way in the 1980s and 1990s, such as at Midland Avenue. A deep bore might work if we're just talking backyards, but I'm not sure if it's under basements of residential properties.

And yes, coffey will be taking a an all-exclusive vacation courtesy of UrbanToronto.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Since SmartTrack would have "local" stops at Lawrence and Ellesmere, and the 2 Bloor-Danforth extension would run "express" to the Scarborough Town Centre, why not have the subway run "express" on the SmartTrack right-of-way until the turn just after Ellesmere? Might be even cheaper than digging a tunnel all the way. Use the saved money for the DRL.

 

[crs1026]

I'd support this, and I would love if the city gave this as a routing option for us to weigh its benefits. In case you weren't aware this alignment actually is a former rail line (Canadian Northern Railway). One issue though is that since it was obliterated and developed decades ago, the City/TTC would have to obtain subsurface property rights from all the homeowners along the route. However, since the subway would only travel under the backyards, and not the buildings themselves, this could be possible I think. So yeah, the alignment is there, and it's a straight shot from Kennedy Stn to McCowan. It should be looked at imo.

Agree this should be explored. The answer may depend on whether the non-stop option is the end vision, or just a stopgap given there is only so much funding. We might want the routing to facilitate "roughing in" the intermediate stations against the day 15 years out when they might make more sense. There will also be resident apprehensions around vibration that will have to be managed. And, there still has to be surface access for fire exits built every so often down the line.

The potential to be stuck in a backup of trains in that loong tunnel when service bunches, or when there is an emergency event, is something I wouldn't enjoy. If someone passes out on a train that's stuck in a backlog, or if a fire happens in between those stations (all it takes is some smouldering trash to trigger an alarm) how easily can first responders access the problem? Even if there are intermediate access points, and it all meets code, it will still be problemmatic.

- Paul

 

[coffey1]

I honestly don't see how this enables development of STC - You still need a reason to go there coming from the south west.

However, this new plan is a massive win for anyone who parks at STC to jump on the subway. A straight shot from STC to Kennedy should be well under 10 minutes (maybe approaching 5-6 minutes if they dig a deep straight tunnel). How long does it take to ride the RT end to end right now? (excluding the transfer at Kennedy)

STC will me one of the busiest stations for that reason. Thousands in the East including the 905 are going to hop off the 401 or drive from the outer areas of Scarborough, park at the mall & hop into Toronto's infrastructure. It will be highly used stop. Also the likely connection to some form of transit along Sheppard makes STC an even more integral stop along the Subway network. They REALLY need to add in a stop on Lawrence. But even without, this funded proposal is the better of the 3 funded plans to date.

 

[44 North]

Agree this should be explored. The answer may depend on whether the non-stop option is the end vision, or just a stopgap given there is only so much funding. We might want the routing to facilitate "roughing in" the intermediate stations against the day 15 years out when they might make more sense. There will also be resident apprehensions around vibration that will have to be managed. And, there still has to be surface access for fire exits built every so often down the line.

The potential to be stuck in a backup of trains in that loong tunnel when service bunches, or when there is an emergency event, is something I wouldn't enjoy. If someone passes out on a train that's stuck in a backlog, or if a fire happens in between those stations (all it takes is some smouldering trash to trigger an alarm) how easily can first responders access the problem? Even if there are intermediate access points, and it all meets code, it will still be problemmatic.

- Paul

So excluding the midrise and homes between Lord Roberts and Eglinton, I counted 40 houses (incl townhouse units) that are actually built overtop the former rail line. This is a lot, and I don't know to what effect a deep bore subway would or wouldn't cause vibrations. Possibly none, possibly some. If it's none, I think the obtaining of subsurface property rights could be achieved. But it's hard to tell, considering that obtaining subsurface property rights below an existing single family home is a rarity here. As for emergency access, I could imagine this being accomplished by putting in emergency exits at both Midland and Brimorton - which are roughly equidistant between stations at Kennedy, Brimley/Lawrence, and STC.

 

[Towered]

2-I think Etobicoke is covered with GO lines, Bloor line, Eglinton LRT and Finch West LRT

Not really. Etobicoke would still need a north-south rapid transit line to serve as a spine in the network. Islington or Kipling would be ideal. If I recall correctly, back when Transit City was first conceived, there were many other candidate streets strongly considered, but were removed to make the plan an easier sell and could be re-instated for a Transit City 2. One of those streets was Kipling.

 

[nfitz]

However, this new plan is a massive win for anyone who parks at STC to jump on the subway. A straight shot from STC to Kennedy should be well under 10 minutes (maybe approaching 5-6 minutes if they dig a deep straight tunnel). How long does it take to ride the RT end to end right now? (excluding the transfer at Kennedy)

The SRT travel time is 9 minutes from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre. (or at least it was before it started to fall to pieces). But the key is the time to change trains, and all those stairs. TTC generally puts that at 4 minutes - so say 13 minutes longer than travelling to Kennedy.

In today's planning report, they estimate that the non-stop travel time from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre is 5.5 minutes (about 40 seconds longer if there's a station at Lawrence East); so probably fair to add 6 minutes.

So from Main Street, it becomes only a 14-minute trip compared to 21 minutes now. And Yonge becomes 28 minutes instead of 35. (compare to the current 31 minutes on GO trips from Agincourt to Union that stop at Danforth).

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The case for a one stop, 2B+ extension to STC is kind of dubious with ST and SMLRT. Why would anyone bother with a subway line to ship riders to Kennedy with the expectation that they will get on ST based on the increased speed/time savings to downtown argument (and oddly enough, having a BD extension of the slow subway and ST interchanging disincentive doesn't seem to be an issue with that arrangement to the proponents anymore).

AoD

 

[bobbob911]

The SRT travel time is 9 minutes from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre. (or at least it was before it started to fall to pieces). But the key is the time to change trains, and all those stairs. TTC generally puts that at 4 minutes - so say 13 minutes longer than travelling to Kennedy.

Hmm, that does surprise me. I expected the RT travel time to be significantly higher than that.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Hmm, that does surprise me. I expected the RT travel time to be significantly higher than that.

It is a travel time issue, or is more of a reliability issue in this context?

AoD

 

[Anonymous2000]

There are a number new detached houses and townhouses built in the CNoR right of way in the 1980s and 1990s, such as at Midland Avenue. A deep bore might work if we're just talking backyards, but I'm not sure if it's under basements of residential properties..

Do you mean the intersection of Midland and Stansbury Cres? From my understanding looking at it from Google maps I think we are mostly talking about backyards, except for 1 or 2 houses. Basements are usually located in the footprint of the house. Also, I notice there is also a plaza south of Stansbury Cres and a school north of it. Do you think a station can be built there to maximize its potential?

 

[ssiguy2]

Why don't they follow the current GO/SRT route to the Hydro/Greenway corridor and then take it NE to McCowan and then tunnel? Lots of room for at-grade along GO/SRT and then they could trench along the Hydro {or whatever the hell it is} so this would be about 4 km of the line at half the price of a full 6km tunnel and be much quicker to build with a fraction the amount of disruption to the current road. They could "box-in a potential station at Lawrence East to built at some future date.

 

[nfitz]

Hmm, that does surprise me. I expected the RT travel time to be significantly higher than that.

Why? SRT trains have better acceleration (and a higher velocity) than any of the subway trains; it's only 6 km from Scarborough Centre to Kennedy with intermediate 3 stops. It's not dissimilar to the 5.5 km Sheppard line, which is only 8 minutes from Don Mills to Yonge with 3 intermediate stops.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

From the Background Report.

 

[epcjay]

I thought in 2013, it was a Provincial mandate to get the subway to STC even if the city decides to back out...?