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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

The bitter irony is making my head implode. People A and B begin arguing. They argue for something like ten pages. Person C comes in and criticizes the fact that people A and B have argued for so long about the same thing. People A and B then proceed to argue with everyone else about the validity of their argument.

Actually apart from Adma there haven't been that many persons C, at least not ones that elevated the conversations to more than incessant, juvenile name-calling. It's Scarberian's choice to continuously respond to my comments just to irk me, not to provide positive or constructive criticism, but chime in whenever his malignant, retrograde, vicerol, parasitic sludge and degradation. Now that's irony 8) !
 
Actually, it's the combined responding by both socialwoe and scarberian that make this thread so "ironic"
 
It is really irony or us keeping the thread alive;) !? We did manage to keep "If any new Expansion..." going for 22 pages of riveting, thought-provoking...hehe, who am I kidding but at least it was entertaining.
 
Article

Subway dream still alive in Scarborough
MIKE ADLER
03/08/07 18:40:00

A big subway extension - and the money to build it - is going somewhere else.

But Scarborough councillors still cling to a dream of a Scarborough subway they acknowledge has little chance of coming true until the Spadina line extension announced Monday is finished around 2015.

Meanwhile, they may have to warm up to a lower-cost alternative, a city-wide network of light-rail or separated bus lines that could be started during the next decade.

Ward 40 Councillor Norm Kelly (Scarborough-Agincourt), however, said he continues to prefer a subway extension over what he calls "the streetcar plan", the Toronto Transit Commission's proposed light-rail network known as Transit City.

"My heart is with the Sheppard subway line," said the chair of Scarborough Community Council, who argued light-rail "can't move as many or do it as quickly," as a subway can.

And Kelly said he believes Monday's federal-provincial announcement of funds for a subway to York University and the City of Vaughan does bring Scarborough a step closer to a subway of its own.

It's reasonable to expect a refurbished Scarborough Rapid-Transit (SRT) line as well as the start of a Sheppard line extension within the next decade, since Toronto now combines its transit-funding requests with those from other cities and "the weight of all will be impossible to resist," Kelly said.

Ward 42 Councillor Raymond Cho (Scarborough-Rouge River), who this year was the sole Scarborough councillor continuing to push for replacement of the aging SRT with a subway extension, said that dream "appears to be on hold; for how long, I don't know."

Although he doesn't want people to give up on a future subway, Cho said the light-rail lines are what Scarborough politicians should ask governments for now.

"We need flexibility and we need to be realistic," said Cho, though he added the light-rail system proposed to Markham Road should come at least as far east as Malvern Town Centre, which is located on Neilson Road north of Sheppard Avenue.

Ward 37 Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), a TTC commissioner, said he's looking into that and other transit possibilities.

Though this week's announcement contained no money for revamping the SRT, Thompson said he was to meet a federal minister yesterday about fast-tracking that project.

And later this month, the TTC will give Scarborough councillors a transit strategy for Scarborough, a first-ever "shopping list" for the area, he said.

As part of Transit City, a study for a faster transit route along Kingston Road is underway and possible light-rail lines will be studied for Lawrence and Eglinton avenues in Scarborough.

Eventually, a Sheppard subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre will help traffic flow and encourage development, Thompson said.

Low opinions of light-rail reflect a lack of experience with such systems, argued Beth Jones, transit campaigner at Toronto Environmental Alliance, a group promoting light-rail plan as faster and more economical than subways.

But the TTC and the city must agree on a comprehensive plan for building the Transit City network and promote light rail as being "not just a streetcar," she said.

Monday's announcement shows a failure to live up to the city's more realistic vision for transit, Jones said.

"Money is going towards areas where lobbyists and loud voices are crowding out the real needs."
 
A big subway extension - and the money to build it - is going somewhere else.

Gee I wonder why? Oh I know, Scarborough doesn't have it's priorities in order.

"We need flexibility and we need to be realistic," said Cho...the light-rail system proposed to Markham Road should come at least as far east as Malvern Town Centre, which is located on Neilson Road north of Sheppard Avenue.

See where priority's heading naysayers? SRT can achieve this but BD East cannot. If half of the TTC routes ran out of STC ORIGINATE IN MALVERN AREA doesn't that tell you that it's Malvern that needs the rapid transit extension and not STC?

As part of Transit City, a study for a faster transit route along Kingston Road is underway and possible light-rail lines will be studied for Lawrence and Eglinton avenues in Scarborough.

An RT or even mini-subway on Eglinton East and Kingston is long overdue. Phase One to Guildwood GO and Phase Two to UTSC with provisions to expand further east as demand warrants it, would be wildly successful and cost no more than York U does especially if cut and cover. Lawrence nodes, Cedarbrae and West Hill, would be in indirect and direct proximity to subways and the 54 could still become a streetcar route between Don Mills and East Ave.

light-rail plan as faster and more economical than subways.

This is so true. You seriously think we should endorse 6-8 km stubs that cost 3 billion to make when the same $ could cover the city landscape with LRT routes? Practically every blue night route is a blueprint of where LRT lines should be constructed meaning no one is ever that far from mass transit in the entire city, not just a select corridor.
 
A network of LRTs would be really nice. I wish it would happen. As long as they're as fast as subways.
 
I'm more worried about them being slower than buses, particularly when the reduced frequency is taken into account.
 
If McCowan gets Bathurst Street-like streetcar/LRT service I'd be able to tolerate it. Queen Street-like... not so much.
 
A network of LRTs would be really nice. I wish it would happen. As long as they're as fast as subways.

It would be nice since even the SRT conversion wouldn't suffice two-thirds of Scarborough commuters and communities. Like I said Blue Night forms the onus of where LRTs belong hence Markham, Danforth-McCowan, Kingston, Morningside, Eglinton, Lawrence, Ellesmere, Sheppard, Finch and Steeles all qualify for this upgrade bringing almost everyone in proximity to rapid transit.

I'm more worried about them being slower than buses, particularly when the reduced frequency is taken into account.

Private ROWs would help some. Plus if stoppage is spaced further apart and not affected by other traffic there's no way it'd be slower than buses.

If McCowan gets Bathurst Street-like streetcar/LRT service I'd be able to tolerate it. Queen Street-like... not so much.

Could you elaborate? Is it that Queen has too many stops?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if McCowan was converted into an LRT line one day. Bathurst or Dundas-like service could also work in place of nightmare bus routes like Lawrence East and Lawrence West...but imagine crawling along Lawrence at Spadina or Queen speeds - it'd take 5 or 6 hours to cross the city that way.

In this whole 'LRT replacing bus' discussion most people (including councillors supposedly acting in the best interest of Scarborough) don't consider the fact that some suburban routes are fast and reliable with buses. Finch East is one of them - Finch East will be worse off with LRT, in both travel times and frequency, and people will be driven to drive. Several other routes would not benefit from LRT but, rather, can be significantly improved with the addition of express/rocket service at a tiny fraction of the hundreds of millions dollars that will be needed to convert any single route to LRT.
 
I'm still of the belief that Scarborough's RT should be replaced with a subway and that this should have been done before the Spadina extension. I'm all for light-rail fanning-out all over Scarborough, but I think you need to get the people to Scarborough Centre first with high-order transit. A Sheppard subway before a B-D extension doesn't really make sense to me as you'll basically have a high-order route from Scarborough Centre to North York Cente, but not from Scarborough Centre to downtown Toronto!
 
I wouldn't be surprised if McCowan was converted into an LRT line one day.

Yes it will if for no other reason it feeds several routes into STC- 129, 130, 131, 132, 169. If it does though it should combined with aforementioned routes serving the local stops so that stops can be spaced far apart- Progress, Milner, Sheppard, Huntingwood/Middlefield, Finch, Sandhurst, McNicoll, Alton Towers and Steeles only.

Bathurst or Dundas-like service could also work in place of nightmare bus routes like Lawrence East and Lawrence West...but imagine crawling along Lawrence at Spadina or Queen speeds - it'd take 5 or 6 hours to cross the city that way.

I don't where this Queen/Spadina bashing, Dundas/Bathurst appraisal's coming from but if the former's more dense and nodal than the latter it makes sense to have more stops en route. If LRTs head onto Lawrence it wouldn't be for the entire length, only where more than buses are needed. From Don Mills to Morningside or at most Beechgrove in the east and from Lawrence West Stn. to Weston in the west, the rest of the corridor can be sufficed by buses.

Finch East is one of them - Finch East will be worse off with LRT, in both travel times and frequency, and people will be driven to drive.

With buses, even express ones, it takes an hour to get from Neilson to Finch Stn. aboard the 39. The problem with express buses they only enter express mode after two-thirds of the journey's already covered past Don Mills where most people are affluent enough to not ride transit anyway.

I'm still of the belief that Scarborough's RT should be replaced with a subway and that this should have been done before the Spadina extension.

The demand in York Region trumps STC's. Although a Yonge extension would've been the more logical choice, capacity concerns coupled with 60,000+ transit dependent York U students at least suffices some fears about it.

I'm all for light-rail fanning-out all over Scarborough, but I think you need to get the people to Scarborough Centre first with high-order transit. A Sheppard subway before a B-D extension doesn't really make sense to me as you'll basically have a high-order route from Scarborough Centre to North York Cente, but not from Scarborough Centre to downtown Toronto!

Actually the Sheppard Line would get people downtown alot faster than BD would. With half the stops the trip to Yonge St is effortless and Sheppard-Yonge's about 10-12 mins from Bloor. And since the interchange's already been made, no time wasted switching trains again, just straight to the core travel ;) !

I'm not even sure STC really needs two subways, especially when the southeast is virtually cut-off from the rest of the city. Preserving the SRT (extending it to CC/MTC) and running the east-west facing BD along Eglinton East and Kingston to Highland Creek serves Scarborough far, far better than sinking everything into a Town Centre which may collapse in significance in 20 years.
 
"Scarborough's RT should be replaced with a subway and that this should have been done before the Spadina extension."

Exactly. The RT replacement window is rapidly closing, which makes this situation so frustrating. Simply put, they're building the wrong subway extension. Priorities this, lobbying that, whatever...it just proves how much is broken in this city and how doomed we just may be.

"Actually the Sheppard Line would get people downtown alot faster than BD would. With half the stops the trip to Yonge St is effortless and Sheppard-Yonge's about 10-12 mins from Bloor."

STC to downtown cannot possibly be done quicker via Sheppard. And good luck getting from Bloor to Lawrence in 10 minutes.
 

I knew you'd say that.

Simply put, they're building the wrong subway extension. Priorities this, lobbying that, whatever...it just proves how much is broken in this city and how doomed we just may be.

Sorry, downtown Toronto will always be the most overlooked majorly dense, so dense every politician must've had their eyes gouged out by pokers, dense node that continuously pound for ponud gets neglected for "town centres 0] " i.e. lopsided attempts to replicate downtown's success but frankly cannot. So yes you're right, the city's broken and doomed because it lacks a connection to it's head, nucleus, whatever epiphet you will against Sorbara's insipidness!

STC to downtown cannot possibly be done quicker via Sheppard. And good luck getting from Bloor to Lawrence in 10 minutes.

Sheppard-Yonge to STC (Yonge-Don Millsx2)= 14 mins
Interchange 10-20 seconds
Bloor-Eglinton 10 mins+1+1+1=13 mins
No interchange= 20s-20s=0+1 min for not waiting for arrival
Total= 26 mins

BD at best would be around 35 mins ;) .
 
It usually takes about 18 minutes to get from Bloor to Sheppard (10km & 8 stops) and the Sheppard line will take at least 20 minutes to get from Yonge to STC (13km & 11 stops). Yonge to Kennedy (13km & 13 stops) is usually about 23 minutes and it'd be about 6 more minutes to STC (5km & 2 stops). Via Sheppard, that's 23km & 19 stops; via Danforth, that's 18km & 15 stops. So, Danforth, despite being 5km shorter, having 4 less stops, and one less transfer, would be 9 minutes slower?
 

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