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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

What I find most disappointing about Chow's position is that in my mind it doesn't really matter if its subway or LRT . . . what's important is consistency. Once the City makes a decision between two equally acceptable options they need to stick with that decision no matter who the mayor is. That is the mistake Ford made - a decision was made but he chose to switch mid-stream for political reasons, as if these things were as simple as painting new lane marking on the pavement. If Chow decides, for political reasons, to switch back she is just as bad as Ford. It leads to even more delay and waste.

The decision to switch from one to the other should only come as a result of some technical or financial roadblock. What Chow should have said was that she supports further study of the project and if the subway proves to be untenable she would support going back to the LRT option. Right now I think the biggest stumbling block is the design of Kennedy Station. Metrolinx needs to start construction within a year or so, which means the plans are currently being drawn up and approved. If they need to go back to the old RT-connection design there could be delays to the Crosstown. Also, the RT conversion was taken out of the current Crosstown contract award, which means it would need to be part of a separate bidding process and contract award, and likely would not be completed until sometime well after 2020.
 
epcjay said:
2 less salaries TTC has to pay I guess?
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More parts and salaries for maintenance, and more fuel purchased.

The Orions and the GM articulated buses of the 1980s and 1990s cost several times more to run than a comparable 40 foot bus. The Novas will cost more as well, but how much more remains to be seen.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
howl said:
The decision to switch from one to the other should only come as a result of some technical or financial roadblock. What Chow should have said was that she supports further study of the project and if the subway proves to be untenable she would support going back to the LRT option.
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Agreed entirely.

If she wants, she could have the SCC subway tax appear as a separate line-item on the tax bill to separate her tax issues from the Ford/Stintz legacy. Frankly, I'm surprised Ford didn't do that with the downtown LRT expenditures (nearly as much as the Scarborough subway for the cities portion).

I won't be surprised if the EA bumps the price of the subway up and we start looking at lower cost options regardless of who the mayor is.
 
howl said:
What I find most disappointing about Chow's position is that in my mind it doesn't really matter if its subway or LRT . . . what's important is consistency. Once the City makes a decision between two equally acceptable options they need to stick with that decision no matter who the mayor is. That is the mistake Ford made - a decision was made but he chose to switch mid-stream for political reasons, as if these things were as simple as painting new lane marking on the pavement. If Chow decides, for political reasons, to switch back she is just as bad as Ford. It leads to even more delay and waste.

The decision to switch from one to the other should only come as a result of some technical or financial roadblock. What Chow should have said was that she supports further study of the project and if the subway proves to be untenable she would support going back to the LRT option. Right now I think the biggest stumbling block is the design of Kennedy Station. Metrolinx needs to start construction within a year or so, which means the plans are currently being drawn up and approved. If they need to go back to the old RT-connection design there could be delays to the Crosstown. Also, the RT conversion was taken out of the current Crosstown contract award, which means it would need to be part of a separate bidding process and contract award, and likely would not be completed until sometime well after 2020.
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I completely agree, I hate when plans are switched mid-plan wasting time and money. However, this is a bit more complicated because the EA and design work of the LRT plan is done, whereas the subway plan hasn't even started. Having said that, the public will see it as flip flopping over and over while getting nothing done if we switch back.

I appreciate that you said it that either one will work. I think sometimes people who follow transit feel their preference or technology is the only choice and every other choice is a failure. In reality, many choices could work, some work better than others in different ways. We have to realize the big picture is improving & expanding the whole transit line and not get caught up in minor technology battles.
 
I do like the idea of having the tax for any transit be on a separate line and cummulative so we as taxpayers can see how much is collected and prevents the money neing thrown in with general revenue
 
ehlow said:
I completely agree, I hate when plans are switched mid-plan wasting time and money. However, this is a bit more complicated because the EA and design work of the LRT plan is done, whereas the subway plan hasn't even started. Having said that, the public will see it as flip flopping over and over while getting nothing done if we switch back.

I appreciate that you said it that either one will work. I think sometimes people who follow transit feel their preference or technology is the only choice and every other choice is a failure. In reality, many choices could work, some work better than others in different ways. We have to realize the big picture is improving & expanding the whole transit line and not get caught up in minor technology battles.
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A statement from former TTC CEO (CGM)

http://www.newstalk1010.com/news/2014/03/24/former-ttc-head-calls-transit-debate-ludicrous

NDP trying to get transit documents

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/23/ndp-pushes-for-transit-documents

the two main issues are:

  1. Transit experts, as with all experts, will have differing ideas and solutions for different locations. For Scarborough, do we listen to the experts that wanted SkyTrain, or the ones who wanted LRT, or the ones who wanted a subway extension?
  2. Are we confident that the experts analysis and opinion are being presented to the politicians and public, or are senior bureaucrats filtering the information that is studied and release only the info which they know would be acceptable to their political masters?
 
I am getting really tired of this transit technology partisanship.

Technology doesn't matter for nothing. What matters is determining what is the best way to move as many people to as many places for as little as possible (+with as little disruption as possible). The technology used to accomplish all that is entirely besides the point.
 
BurlOak said:
A statement from former TTC CEO (CGM)

http://www.newstalk1010.com/news/2014/03/24/former-ttc-head-calls-transit-debate-ludicrous

NDP trying to get transit documents

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/23/ndp-pushes-for-transit-documents

the two main issues are:

  1. Transit experts, as with all experts, will have differing ideas and solutions for different locations. For Scarborough, do we listen to the experts that wanted SkyTrain, or the ones who wanted LRT, or the ones who wanted a subway extension?
  2. Are we confident that the experts analysis and opinion are being presented to the politicians and public, or are senior bureaucrats filtering the information that is studied and release only the info which they know would be acceptable to their political masters?
Click to expand...

I thought it was the conservative government at the time that wanted SkyTrain technology, while the experts wanted LRT.
 
BurlOak said:
A statement from former TTC CEO (CGM)

http://www.newstalk1010.com/news/2014/03/24/former-ttc-head-calls-transit-debate-ludicrous

NDP trying to get transit documents

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/03/23/ndp-pushes-for-transit-documents

the two main issues are:

  1. Transit experts, as with all experts, will have differing ideas and solutions for different locations. For Scarborough, do we listen to the experts that wanted SkyTrain, or the ones who wanted LRT, or the ones who wanted a subway extension?
  2. Are we confident that the experts analysis and opinion are being presented to the politicians and public, or are senior bureaucrats filtering the information that is studied and release only the info which they know would be acceptable to their political masters?
Click to expand...

But what are the chances the reports will state different transit options than what is now planned? Can the Liberals somehow blank things out?
 
salsa said:
I thought it was the conservative government at the time that wanted SkyTrain technology, while the experts wanted LRT.
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I was refering to the 2006 TTC report. In 7 years we went from SkyTrain as the best and B-D extension as worst, to B-D extension being best and SkyTrain not even in the discussion.
 
BurlOak said:
I was refering to the 2006 TTC report. In 7 years we went from SkyTrain as the best and B-D extension as worst, to B-D extension being best and SkyTrain not even in the discussion.
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I remember that report saying the subway extension was neither practical or cost-effective.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...s-bets-on-scarborough-subway/article18340299/
With transit’s future unclear, TTC hedges bets on Scarborough subway

“What we’re trying to avoid is wasted money, okay,” Mr. Byford said before the monthly meeting of the TTC board.

“So whether it were it were an LRT or a subway there’s certain things that you would have to do anyway by way of preparatory work. So given the potential uncertainty in the run-up to a mayoral election, we’re trying to limit work to that which would have to be done for either mode.”
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