Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

The DRL makes sense because it has a single key feeder route, the Bloor Danforth line. Sure, it runs through some of the densest neighborhoods in Canada...

Yeah unfortunately the Relief Line is probably not going to be much of an improvement for most people living downtown; especially if we choose the Downtown to Eglinton alignment for the Relief Line. I'd love if we could get some of those great new LRT systems that will be on Sheppard and Finch here downtown. Honestly I'm kind of jealous of them. A few billion dollars in new downtown LRT lines and upgrading the 510 Spadina at least to what we'll see with the SELRT would probably be far more beneficial for people living downtown.

The DRL makes sense because it has a single key feeder route, the Bloor Danforth line. Sure, it runs through some of the densest neighborhoods in Canada but in the end of the day that still only produces similar ridership figures as the Sheppard line. (take a look at the 504's daily usage numbers, it runs a very similar route to the proposed DRL)

Why are you comparing a 504 to ridership on Sheppard Subway? The streetcar already moves more people than Sheppard and ridership is certain to massively increase once it's replaced by RT. I don't think it's fair to look at 504 ridership and then assume that Relief Line ridership will be identical to that.

DRL ridership planning comes from the places to grow act, which places Toronto at lower population growth rates than it is currently experiencing, though I must admit that population growth is occurring in an area that would not be using the DRL daily. unsure about employment growth. Toronto has struggled with that for decades. (though the growth it is experiencing is extremely transit friendly, largely located in the downtown core as office jobs) Toronto's population is set to be well over 3 million by the time the DRL is completed.

These office jobs generate huge transit ridership. If actual growth continues to outpace Place to Grow then the Relief Line is sure to exceed the TTC's projections. I have no reservations saying that.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I mean that the 504 serves mostly local demand currently. (walk up passengers, no transfers), and that number is unlikely to increase dramatically once the DRL is constructed. most of the ridership of the line is going to be coming fro transfers from the B-D line and other connecting routes. The 504 posts very similar numbers (albeit slightly larger) than Sheppard as well, but the sheppard line acts almost entirely off of feeders.


What I was trying to say is that it is almost impossible to justify a subway on density alone, especially if it is residential only density.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I mean that the 504 serves mostly local demand currently. (walk up passengers, no transfers), and that number is unlikely to increase dramatically once the DRL is constructed. most of the ridership of the line is going to be coming fro transfers from the B-D line and other connecting routes. The 504 posts very similar numbers (albeit slightly larger) than Sheppard as well, but the sheppard line acts almost entirely off of feeders.


What I was trying to say is that it is almost impossible to justify a subway on density alone, especially if it is residential only density.

Ahh okay I understand. What you say is true.

What I've observed in Toronto and in other cities [of similar size] is that the formula for a successful rapid transit line is running through large and dense central business district and when those rapid transit lines have suburban streetcar/LRT/bus routes feeding them. And even that doesn't guarantee high levels of usage. The Sheppard Subway that Andrew keeps advocating for has neither. The bus routes in the area have minimal usage and there is little new office development. Yes there is residential development, but even several thousands of new residential units can't generate subway-levels of ridership.

In the next few decades the only potential exception to this rule that I can see is a heavy rail subway through central Eglinton. Most of us will probably be gone by time Sheppard is "subway ready"

 

[Rainforest]

People also keep ignoring that the Sheppard subway extension (Don Mills to Scarborough Centre) has a lot more development on it (the Consumers Road business park and various new condo developments) than the SRT replacement subway.

That's true.

But despite that, the Danforth extension will probably have twice as much ridership as the Sheppard extension would. Most of riders will not be going to new developments near the new stations; they will simply pass through en route to downtown destinations.

Also keep in mind that the number of people going to Yonge/Bloor is not enormous. The amount of office space at Yonge/Bloor is only slightly higher than North York Centre and no new office buildings have been built at Yonge/Bloor for years, compared to one small office development at Yonge/Sheppard. Sure there is U of T, but demand to universities tends to be spread throughout the day because students have classes all day. The vast majority of people who work downtown are going south of Bloor and transferring to the Yonge line. So it doesn't really matter whether people transfer to the Yonge line at Sheppard or at Bloor, and the Don Mills line is needed anyway to deal with Yonge line overcrowding problems.

Such configuration (with the DRL / Don Mills line reaching Sheppard) will take 40 or 50 years to build. Until then, Danforth extension will have much higher ridership potential than Sheppard extension.

 

[ehlow]

The 504 is unreliable, slow, and at capacity, yet still gets amazing ridership. If there were a subway near the same route with reasonable stop spacing say 600-800m, I speculate that it would get a way higher ridership than the 504.

Alternatively if they ran more 504 streetcars and increased reliability & speed using the new streetcars, POP, banning cars on the streetcar line for example, I think ridership would increase as well.

 

[nfitz]

Alternatively if they ran more 504 streetcars and increased reliability & speed using the new streetcars, POP, banning cars on the streetcar line for example, I think ridership would increase as well.

If they fixed some of the issues on some of the streetcar routes, like King and Spadina, the latent demand might be unmanageable.

Personally I think the long-term solution for Spadina is subway to King. The ridership is crazy high, given how short the route is (most of the ridership is between King or Queen to Bloor).

King is similar between Bathurst and Parliament.

 

[ehlow]

If they fixed some of the issues on some of the streetcar routes, like King and Spadina, the latent demand might be unmanageable.

Personally I think the long-term solution for Spadina is subway to King. The ridership is crazy high, given how short the route is (most of the ridership is between King or Queen to Bloor).

King is similar between Bathurst and Parliament.

Yeah it would probably support a subway, but the subway would have to have much wider stop spacing. Hopefully the new vehicles & POP improve the route.

I'd be tempted to put a Bathurst instead if we're putting a North-South subway downtown, since Spadina is a 10 min walk from University. However, if your destination is say Queen & Bathurst, it's either a 20 min walk from Osgoode station, or you have to take the Queen or Bathurst streetcar. Dufferin might be a good route too.

For me, an E-W subway near King would probably be most useful and hitting most destinations that currently take a long time to get to by transit.

I really think the demand is there for at least one more subway line downtown and I'd love to see it. In fact, I think it's inevitable that there will eventually be another subway downtown. But given the fact that the best scenario is a long DRL opening in 10-15 years, I really hope the new vehicles will improve streetcar service until that happens.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If they fixed some of the issues on some of the streetcar routes, like King and Spadina, the latent demand might be unmanageable.

Personally I think the long-term solution for Spadina is subway to King. The ridership is crazy high, given how short the route is (most of the ridership is between King or Queen to Bloor).

King is similar between Bathurst and Parliament.

Though the 510 does move more people than the Sheppard Subway Boondoggle, a subway on Spadina would be overkill. I'd much rather they upgrade it or a proper LRT.

What I'd like to see on Spadina:
-Signal priority
- 2 car trainsets of our new LFLRVs
- Lengthened platforms at Spadina Station to accommodate 2 car LFLRV trainsets.
- Upgraded shelters

The capital costs should be relatively cheap (especially compared to Sheppard) and should add more than enough capacity for the next 20 years or so.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yeah it would probably support a subway, but the subway would have to have much wider stop spacing. Hopefully the new vehicles & POP improve the route.

I'd be tempted to put a Bathurst instead if we're putting a North-South subway downtown, since Spadina is a 10 min walk from University. However, if your destination is say Queen & Bathurst, it's either a 20 min walk from Osgoode station, or you have to take the Queen or Bathurst streetcar. Dufferin might be a good route too.

For me, an E-W subway near King would probably be most useful and hitting most destinations that currently take a long time to get to by transit.

I really think the demand is there for at least one more subway line downtown and I'd love to see it. In fact, I think it's inevitable that there will eventually be another subway downtown. But given the fact that the best scenario is a long DRL opening in 10-15 years, I really hope the new vehicles will improve streetcar service until that happens.

Innsertnamehere proposed a branch of a Yonge express subway that would run under Spadina and terminate at Spadina Station. This is what we're most likely to see in the next 50 years IMO.

 

[Johnny Au]

Though the 510 does move more people than the Sheppard Subway Boondoggle, a subway on Spadina would be overkill. I'd much rather they upgrade it or a proper LRT.

What I'd like to see on Spadina:
-Signal priority
- 2 car trainsets of our new LFLRVs
- Lengthened platforms at Spadina Station to accommodate 2 car LFLRV trainsets.
- Upgraded shelters

The capital costs should be relatively cheap (especially compared to Sheppard) and should add more than enough capacity for the next 20 years or so.

...and get rid of the Sussex Avenue stops as well.

 

[ehlow]

Though the 510 does move more people than the Sheppard Subway Boondoggle, a subway on Spadina would be overkill. I'd much rather they upgrade it or a proper LRT.

What I'd like to see on Spadina:
-Signal priority
- 2 car trainsets of our new LFLRVs
- Lengthened platforms at Spadina Station to accommodate 2 car LFLRV trainsets.
- Upgraded shelters

The capital costs should be relatively cheap (especially compared to Sheppard) and should add more than enough capacity for the next 20 years or so.

That would certainly be close to an LRT, but it would still be fairly slow due to close stop spacing. That's fine though, it's meant to be a local service.

It would be cool to see 2 car train-sets, but I wonder if such a massive capacity increase would be needed immediately. Each new streetcar is 2x the current streetcar, so two of them would be 4x the length.

Can't wait to see how the new vehicles work out this year.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

We'll wait till the LFLRVs go into service on Spadina to see if that's an improvement. They may be enough for today, but their viability in the future is questionable. Anybody who's used the 510 Spadina at Spadina station during rush hour knows how long the waits can be. We're talking about having 2, 3 maybe even 4 full streetcars pass by before you can cram on. I'm not going go be surprised if the TTC wants a few 2 car LFLRVs during peak hour on Spadina in the next decade.

Mind that the same thing can be said for any downtown streetcar. This is why I want more downtown LRT (similar to SELRT) with local stop spacing. It will be far more beneficial to people who actually live downtown than the "downtown" relief line ever will be.

 

[Rainforest]

2-car LRV trains will have difficulties operating on the majority of downtown streets, due to very closely located intersections. Platforms long enough to accommodate such trains, will in some cases literally block the previous intersection, and in many cases block other street functions.

Finch and Sheppard have much different intersection patterns, 2-car trains are not a problem there.

New LFLRVs will be bigger than today's ALRT streetcars and that by itself will increase the capacity 1.5 to 2 times.

If that is still not enough, I don't know whether anything else can be done for Spadina since the headways are very tight already. But on most of other downtown routes, TTC can simply increase the frequencies while running single LRVs.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

2-car LRV trains will have difficulties operating on the majority of downtown streets, due to very closely located intersections. Platforms long enough to accommodate such trains, will in some cases literally block the previous intersection, and in many cases block other street functions.

Finch and Sheppard have much different intersection patterns, 2-car trains are not a problem there.

I think you've greatly overestimated the length of the LFLRV. The platform in the photo above is more than long enough to fit 1 LFLRV and should be able to fit three CLRVs (I'm eyeballing it). Even if the length of the platform were doubled (much more than what 2-car LFLRV trainsets would need), I can't see how it would possibly affect traffic operations.

New LFLRVs will be bigger than today's ALRT streetcars and that by itself will increase the capacity 1.5 to 2 times.

I'm not at all convinced that the LFLRVs will "fix" the capacity issues on 510 (or any other streetcar route for that matter). Remember that the LFLRVs will have lower headways than the CLRVs. This means that 510 will see only 50% increase in capacity. That will certainly help to reduce wait times once they go into service, but you'll still be lucky to get on the first LFLRV that arrives. As ridership continues to increase, I don't think it will be long before crowding on the 510 is as bad as it is today.

If that is still not enough, I don't know whether anything else can be done for Spadina since the headways are very tight already. But on most of other downtown routes, TTC can simply increase the frequencies while running single LRVs.

Maintaining today's headways on Spadina should resolve the crowding issues going into the near future. Hopefully the TTC will get that additional order of LFLRV they wanted.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It got delayed this year, hopefully next year with a new administration.