Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[WislaHD]

To me it seems like the best thing for Scarborough transit riders would be more & better bus service, more frequent & reliable, starting immediately. Maybe implement some quick & very cheap bus lanes (paint and signs).

The subway won't be open until 10 years later, and 99% of Scarborough doesn't live within walking distance of it.

All agreed.

Transit isn't intended to be equitable and that isn't how transit should be planned. The best thing to do for Scarborough residents is as you say, making existing transit (bus services) more frequent and more reliable. Beyond that, the SRT needs to be replaced as it is well past its shelf life, and the commute for many Scarborough residents would be improved with the construction of the DRL.

 

[kEiThZ]

The LRT would have went to STC and serve "all of Northeast Scarborough". What's the difference?

1) Continued transfer at Kennedy. Or you stay on for a slower ride along Eglinton than the Bloor-Danforth.
2) 2-3 year complete shutdown.
3) Negligible commute savings for most riders....even from Malvern which was supposed to be the real seller of this plan.

Anyway, this had been repeated ad nauseam. People can debate the merits of it. But really, point 1 is the one that ticks people off every single morning. And point 2 will really tick people off when it happens.

Now, it's not me on some forum that you have to convince. You have to convince the hundreds of thousands of Scarberians who take the TTC every morning that the plan is better. I am telling you why they think it sucks. And I am telling you why the politicans they elected are running scared to give them the LRT. Not too many of them will keep their jobs after a 2-3 year shutdown with a whole lot of Scarborough residents taking 1.5-2 hours in each direction on their commute during construction, only to have the hated transfer and ultimately save 10 minutes if they live at the very end of the line.

Argue on here all you want. Good luck trying to tell the rest of the proles that they are stupid. Lots of elites tried that the last time around. And that's why they voted for guys like Ford. I am loathe to say this, but he's the one guy that paid them lip service.

 

[scott pilgrim]

Argue on here all you want. Good luck trying to tell the rest of the proles that they are stupid. Lots of elites tried that the last time around. And that's why they voted for guys like Ford. I am loathe to say this, but he's the one guy that paid them lip service.

I agree with Voltz that you are painting the residents of Scarborough as some sort of scorned lover at best, and tantrum having children at worst. I'll chime in and give them some credit: most of the people I know are fairly sensible and realistic about transit. If anything, I think people in Scarborough are tired of having their name punted around during the longest and dumbest game of political football. I will concede that if the subway plan is moving, there isn't any reason to touch the poop, politically; that doesn't make it an efficient use of money. I understand that many people go straight downtown for work, but the potential benefits of such a line should not solely be based on speed towards other spots in Toronto. That's not exactly a great endorsement for the east end...

Stop thinking that you speak for "hundreds of thousands" of people from Scarborough, and especially Malvern, it's annoying. Keep in mind that ward 42 was the only Scarborough ward to not give more than 50% of the vote to Ford, and on other levels have voted Liberal since the dawn of time, except during the last federal election when they went NDP. As a product of said area (since you actually used it as an argument, I will do it too!), I can tell you that the Malvern I know is not swayed by the regressive, wedge issue, low tax, two-word-catchphrase rhetoric.

 

[kEiThZ]

Wait. Let me get this straight. Others are allowed to present gross generalisations of Scarborough residents and that's presented as fact. Don't you all know that Scarborough residents are simpletons who chose a car dependent lifestyles and deserve their two hour commutes? Disagreeing with that is not supposed to be allowed because "I'm speaking for all Scarborough residents"?

Thankfully, it's a free forum and I can say what I want, and don't have to adhere to such BS or contribute to the circle jerk. Don't like my opinions? Feel free to add me to your ignore list.

Having spent half my life in Scarborough, I'd say I'm fairly confident that I understand the views of my friends and neighbours. I may not always agree with them (and as a transit fan that's often). But I understand them. And I will speak to that point of view. If only because the perspective of the common man is so sorely lacking on this forum. Indeed, the contempt for the very people we expect to fork over billions in taxes for transit is palpable in this community.

I'd also add that if my perspective is sooooo wrong, how is it that Queen's Park canned its own LRT plan and supported the Bloor-Danforth extension? Guess my reading of the sentiments in my hometown aren't all that off after all. Or did all those municipal and provincial politicians suddenly decide to be spontaneously generous?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Listen, at the end of the day you have to sell the city on LRT. Maybe it will happen when Eglinton opens. But right now most people want more subways. Another poll just came out saying that. There's a belief that LRT is second hand transit and until that notion is dispersed we will be stuck.

 

[kEiThZ]

Taken purely from a speed perspective, subways are better. Especially in cases like this one where you're adding a transfer to the subway for downtown bound riders.

That said, of course, there is a reality with cost and that has to be balanced with the desires of riders.

In this case, I don't think it's a subways all the way case. I, personally, believe that LRT is actually a much easier sell on Sheppard. Rob Ford aside. After all the LRT there will be going further than the subway was originally planned to go and you can build spurs to STC and Malvern. I honestly believe that you'll even see demand for conversion to LRT of the Sheppard Subway with the transfer at Don Mills eventually compared to Kennedy station.

The SRT replacement to me is simply a different animal. There is a visceral hatred of the thing in some parts based on everything from reliability, ride comfort and of course the transfer at Kennedy. A lot of that ill will will disappear with the subway to STC. Not just that. The demand in this corridor is just below subway levels to begin with. It's the desire to provide LRT to Centennial College and Malvern that drove the LRT choice. In essence, mixing demand forecast. Grade separation on that plan also yielded really wide spacing past McCowan. So really, the accessibility here is nothing like other TC routes. Look at the spacing proposed between Centennial and Sheppard for instance.

But here's the thing, you can actually achieve most of the STC-Malvern link by simply using Sheppard and the spurs to STC and Malvern. The only station not served then would be Centennial.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Demand is actually right at subway levels. subway level demand typically begins around 10,000 PPHD, and that is where this is at.

Sheppard would only get 5-6,000 PPHD, way too low for a subway. Currently it gets roughly 3,500.

 

[Forgotten]

My folks moved to Malvern in 1991. I remember stories from shortly after that about an SRT extension to Malvern. Then I remember stories in the late 90s about a Bloor-Danforth extension to STC.

You expect Scarborough residents to give up the subway they were promised decades ago now for a piddling extension that does not really do much for most riders, after putting up with 2-3 years of absolutlely horrible commutes? This kind of thinking is exactly why Scarborough residents feel screwed over.

Also, that $1.5 billion won't be spent on Scarborough. It'll end up GTA wide. We all know what will happen. Scarborough will get an extra handful of GO trains and they'll call it a day. I wouldn't want that deal. Show me a plan that actually builds GO REX and puts a station in Malvern and sets up proper REX all-day, two-way service on Stouffville and Lakeshore line, with proper fare and service integration with TTC, then we can justifiably say that Scarborough should pass on the B-D extension.

It is obvious nobody on UT has ever actually gone out there to talk to the taxpayers.

Long time Malvern resident kEiThZ was at ground zero and the folks out there all say the same thing: Promises were made but the Scarbarians were Judased by their supposed brothers and sisters in Toronto, Etobicoke, and North York.

Nobody in the history of this city has ever had to put up with a parade of broken promises and deep betrayal like Scarborough.

Where were our brothers and sisters when the Rhine was breached long ago? Stoically Scarborough residents stood alone and alone they endured. Never again!

It is high time reparations are made. These folks will receive what they were destined for from the moment they were conceived!

Ere the sun rises!

 

[drum118]

It is obvious nobody on UT has ever actually gone out there to talk to the taxpayers.

Long time Malvern resident kEiThZ was at ground zero and the folks out there all say the same thing: Promises were made but the Scarbarians were Judased by their supposed brothers and sisters in Toronto, Etobicoke, and North York.

Nobody in the history of this city has ever had to put up with a parade of broken promises and deep betrayal like Scarborough.

Where were our brothers and sisters when the Rhine was breached long ago? Stoically Scarborough residents stood alone and alone they endured. Never again!

It is high time reparations are made. These folks will receive what they were destined for from the moment they were conceived!

Ere the sun rises!

Well I Did.

Years ago, I walked every foot of the LRT extension to Malvern Mall from the yard and there are photos & Videos up on the sites showing it. I talked to over a dozen or so residents who houses back onto the right of way with most having no idea the EA was underway for the extension and were in support of the line being LRT. Even talking to residents at the mall, they supported the plan LRT extension. Nearly everyone said this extension was long over due and the city fail to live up to their promise of having the line in place before now.

 

[ehlow]

Demand is actually right at subway levels. subway level demand typically begins around 10,000 PPHD, and that is where this is at.

Sheppard would only get 5-6,000 PPHD, way too low for a subway. Currently it gets roughly 3,500.

Where can someone find the PPHD projections for the planned lines? Thanks.

 

[nfitz]

Nobody in the history of this city has ever had to put up with a parade of broken promises and deep betrayal like Scarborough.

No one? What about the promise in the 1940s to build the Queen line, which slowly morphed into the downtown relief line. That's been shown on various plans now for 70 years!

What about the 40-year old promise of 15-minute frequencies on the Lakeshore East line?

What about the promise of the RT into Kipling station?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No one? What about the promise in the 1940s to build the Queen line, which slowly morphed into the downtown relief line. That's been shown on various plans now for 70 years!

What about the 40-year old promise of 15-minute frequencies on the Lakeshore East line?

What about the promise of the RT into Kipling station?

DRL, fine. the others are semantics. Kipling subway and the station are right beside each other. We don't don't even have all day service on the other go lines yet.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Demand is actually right at subway levels. subway level demand typically begins around 10,000 PPHD, and that is where this is at.

Sheppard would only get 5-6,000 PPHD, way too low for a subway. Currently it gets roughly 3,500.

so let's assume sheppard goes to STC and weston. Maybe we'll make the BD and Sheppard a through line, eliminate the transfer at STC. So now the line goes from Weston to Kipling (or Cloverdale in the future)


are we really trying to say that won't change anything?

 

[nfitz]

Kipling subway and the station are right beside each other.

They are. But what has this got to do with the failure to deliver the promised Etobicoke RT to Kipling station, up the hydro corridor?

We don't don't even have all day service on the other go lines yet.

The all day service promised us over 20 years ago. What, by the year 2000 wasn't it?

My point is it's not particularly Scarborough that got screwed. If anything they got the RT that Etobiocke didn't get. And now they are getting that converted to a subway. They get the Eglinton line, while the piece of Eglinton line through Etobiocke to Mississauga has been cancelled.

 

[Adjei]

They are. But what has this got to do with the failure to deliver the promised Etobicoke RT to Kipling station, up the hydro corridor?

The all day service promised us over 20 years ago. What, by the year 2000 wasn't it?

My point is it's not particularly Scarborough that got screwed. If anything they got the RT that Etobiocke didn't get. And now they are getting that converted to a subway. They get the Eglinton line, while the piece of Eglinton line through Etobiocke to Mississauga has been cancelled.

Exactly people act us if Scarborough is the only place in Toronto with crap transit. What about places in northern Etobicoke like the Rexdale. Last I checked I don't see any subways running there.