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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

The Jarrett Walker talk was very enlightening and one of the things he explained was that transit cannot be equitable.

http://www.humantransit.org/2014/02/video-my-presentation-in-toronto.html

Thank you for posting that, the talk was very enjoyable and as you say, enlightening. He pointed out some quirks in our system I hadn't even thought to address, and never have seen addressed on here, such as our bus system feeding Yonge Street instead of serving as an E-W mode of transportation. The talk also reaffirms my vote for a Sheppard West expansion.
 
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...h_is_worse_than_any_of_the_options_james.html

By: Royson James City Columnist, Published on Tue Feb 11 2014

The messy, convoluted road to transit heaven is about to get murkier. Even before we emerge from the current fog, the municipal election looms, promising more cloudy days and bewildering nights.
So far, just two mainline candidates (three, if you consider former Councillor Norm Gardner as such) have declared for mayor of Toronto. Mayor Rob Ford wants to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway up to Sheppard and McCowan, but voted against the tax hike he proposed to build it. The challenger, David Soknacki, says he would jerk us back to an earlier city council decision that puts light rail transit in the corridor.
Imagine what John Tory might come up with. Or Olivia Chow.

Consider what wrinkle former TTC chair Karen Stintz might throw in when she faces the reality that the new northeastern subway extension terminus creates an odd break in the network: subway from Yonge to Don Mills and Sheppard . . . subway to McCowan and Sheppard . . . and an LRT in between?
Under the current approvals, supported by both Stintz and Ford, the new Eglinton Crosstown LRT would terminate at Kennedy . . . only to see the LRT re-start several kilometers north, along Sheppard. It’s almost as if someone set out to create a disconnected grid.
Ford has vowed to get rid of the LRT disconnected link and go subway all the way. But he can’t pay for it and can’t lead the council horses to the water, much less have them drink. Soknacki would make the whole thing LRT, except where the Sheppard LRT meets the Sheppard Subway at Don Mills.
Stintz? Tory? Jane Doe? We can’t wait on their ruminations.

It matters not that Torontonians are tired of the debate, the sudden detours, the political lurching from one transportation mode to the next; we are stuck in neutral because the way ahead is so unsure.
Most distressingly, the TTC and Metrolinx, the two transit agencies empowered to show us the way, are themselves either lost or jerked from one position to the next, too often supporting both, depending on the political wind. Practically, the train operator and the conductor can be seen groping around in the mist, unsure of the way forward.
Now, Toronto is overrun with transit experts who know exactly which way to go. It was one group of activist experts who brought us Transit City — numerous LRT lines intersecting the city.

Another group would have none of that, wanting transit tucked away underground so the roads can be left for cars. Would that one view had held sway instead of the damnable hybrid now on the books.
If you live in the extreme quadrants of the city, or the GTA for that matter, you need one direct link to the network; and then you need the network to move you quickly across the grid to the other side of town.

Instead, this is the current prospect:
From the east, you bus it to McCowan and change mode to an LRT heading west to Don Mills; then change to the Sheppard Subway before switching trains to go downtown; or hop a bus to go farther west, to hook into the subway at Downsview. Madness.

Making it all either subway or LRT seems to be a reasonable position. But there may be a middle ground, using the automated driverless technology popular in Vancouver’s SkyTrain, a bigger, improved, mainly elevated version of the Scarborough Rapid Transit system. The subway is expensive; the LRT as envisioned makes too many stops and is too slow to lure enough commuters out of their cars. And the SRT-SkyTrain system isn’t even being considered.

The Transit City people had it right with the extensive grid. Problem is, they opted for an internal, local-commute system when the greater city needs a regional solution.

What would have happened if they’d adopted the improved SRT technology and used that across the entire system — Eglinton, Sheppard and elsewhere. There’s an argument to be made that this would give us a better chance to attract new riders.

As it stands, most citizens are fed up with the talk. This weariness has created an atmosphere of desperation. In such an environment, the eyes and mind get closed to options and alternatives.
One nightmare outcome is that two or three decades hence we’ll wake up stuck in traffic, billions of dollars poorer. It’s never too late to consider the right solution — until it is.

Was this the guy (James) who thought favourably of the Neptis report. If someone wanted SkyTrain, they should have spoken up years ago.
 
It is not so straightforward. The #1 obstacle to GO enhancements is the Union Station capacity. Resolving that bottleneck will probably cost much more than $1.5 Billion; on the other hand, benefits will not be limited to Scarborough but will be felt across the whole city.

So, yes if there was a comprehensive and funded plan to convert GO to a meaningful intra-city service, then the $1.5 Billion would be much better spent as a part of GO funding rather than to extend the Danforth subway.

But in the absence of specific plan and adequate funding, Scarberians do not get much in return if they agree to cancel the subway extension and go back to the SLRT plan. Federal money will likely be taken back, and the city will either cancel the property tax hike, or use the funds for general repairs.

The DRL being used as a GO REX tunnel instead of a TTC subway tunnel would more than eliminate that bottleneck. The funding for it is already (tentatively) there, and it's still early enough in the design that it could be changed without significant difficulty.
 
This is why you want a driverless automated system (whether an exclusive RoW LRT, generic mini-metro or SkyTrain) - although there are high capital costs, there are low operating costs.
And when the Province is paying for capital costs, but the City is responsible for operating costs, it makes sense to go for low operating costs in the long run.



From page 18 here:
http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Doc...media10yearplan/Resource Guide 2009 10YP.ashx
 
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. So why not stick with the LRT and do that?

My folks moved to Malvern in 1991. I remember stories from shortly after that about an SRT extension to Malvern. Then I remember stories in the late 90s about a Bloor-Danforth extension to STC.

You expect Scarborough residents to give up the subway they were promised decades ago now for a piddling extension that does not really do much for most riders, after putting up with 2-3 years of absolutlely horrible commutes? This kind of thinking is exactly why Scarborough residents feel screwed over.

Also, that $1.5 billion won't be spent on Scarborough. It'll end up GTA wide. We all know what will happen. Scarborough will get an extra handful of GO trains and they'll call it a day. I wouldn't want that deal. Show me a plan that actually builds GO REX and puts a station in Malvern and sets up proper REX all-day, two-way service on Stouffville and Lakeshore line, with proper fare and service integration with TTC, then we can justifiably say that Scarborough should pass on the B-D extension.
 
My folks moved to Malvern in 1991. I remember stories from shortly after that about an SRT extension to Malvern. Then I remember stories in the late 90s about a Bloor-Danforth extension to STC.

You expect Scarborough residents to give up the subway they were promised decades ago now for a piddling extension that does not really do much for most riders, after putting up with 2-3 years of absolutlely horrible commutes? This kind of thinking is exactly why Scarborough residents feel screwed over.

Also, that $1.5 billion won't be spent on Scarborough. It'll end up GTA wide. We all know what will happen. Scarborough will get an extra handful of GO trains and they'll call it a day. I wouldn't want that deal. Show me a plan that actually builds GO REX and puts a station in Malvern and sets up proper REX all-day, two-way service on Stouffville and Lakeshore line, with proper fare and service integration with TTC, then we can justifiably say that Scarborough should pass on the B-D extension.

To me it seems like the best thing for Scarborough transit riders would be more & better bus service, more frequent & reliable, starting immediately. Maybe implement some quick & very cheap bus lanes (paint and signs).

The subway won't be open until 10 years later, and 99% of Scarborough doesn't live within walking distance of it.
 
My folks moved to Malvern in 1991. I remember stories from shortly after that about an SRT extension to Malvern. Then I remember stories in the late 90s about a Bloor-Danforth extension to STC.

You expect Scarborough residents to give up the subway they were promised decades ago now for a piddling extension that does not really do much for most riders, after putting up with 2-3 years of absolutlely horrible commutes? This kind of thinking is exactly why Scarborough residents feel screwed over.

Also, that $1.5 billion won't be spent on Scarborough. It'll end up GTA wide. We all know what will happen. Scarborough will get an extra handful of GO trains and they'll call it a day. I wouldn't want that deal. Show me a plan that actually builds GO REX and puts a station in Malvern and sets up proper REX all-day, two-way service on Stouffville and Lakeshore line, with proper fare and service integration with TTC, then we can justifiably say that Scarborough should pass on the B-D extension.

As a Scarborough resident I don't like or agree with how you keep on portraying us as being victimized or screwed over in order to support your subway, that's the same Scarborough will finally be a full citizen garbage that councillors kept on repeating to support it, that is the worst way to plan things

Even if GO gets ignored the federal funding alone could bring the SRT right through Malvern and be far better than ending the subway at McCowan, I know you know that is better and I can't imagine why the fact that the SRT was cut back to Sheppard justifies spending all that extra money to build a subway that ends even further away from Malvern.
 
The subway is never coming to Malvern.

Indeed. Malvern actually has it pretty good compared to the North West corner of the city.

Please don't confuse that statement with "good enough" because transit across the entire city should be dramatically improved.
 
As a Scarborough resident I don't like or agree with how you keep on portraying us as being victimized or screwed over in order to support your subway, that's the same Scarborough will finally be a full citizen garbage that councillors kept on repeating to support it, that is the worst way to plan things

You may live in Scarborough, but I'm guessing that you've never lived in Malvern.

Even if GO gets ignored the federal funding alone could bring the SRT right through Malvern and be far better than ending the subway at McCowan, I know you know that is better and I can't imagine why the fact that the SRT was cut back to Sheppard justifies spending all that extra money to build a subway that ends even further away from Malvern.

The current plan called for terminating the SRT at Progress and Sheppard. Across from the Chinese Cultural Centre. That doesn't do much for most of Malvern. At that point, you might as well stay on the bus till Town Centre or McCowan. The savings really aren't substantial.

On the other hand, if the subway ever crosses the 401 to McCowan and Sheppard, it will intercept most of the routes from Malvern and lots of really busy Agincourt routes, like McCowan North. Combine that with one less transfer and the time savings are noticeable.

The SRT extension was only going to make sense if they really were going to take it to Malvern and maybe even further north... Progress and Sheppard is a tease. Like Don Mills.
 
Ummm. Nobody ever said it would or should go to Malvern. Simply taking it to STC does a ton for all of Northeast Scarborough (not just Malvern).

The LRT would have went to STC and serve "all of Northeast Scarborough". What's the difference?
 

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