Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[syn]

I'm sure they were really given a choice......

It's hard to take a comment like that seriously.

Yes, they had a choice. It was a Scarborough delegation that asked the province to explore the possibility of using ICTS technology after a visit to the plant where the vehicles would be produced. Scarborough council voted in favour of the project without any sort of public consultations. That's on them (though I don't think it would've mattered given the excitement over the technology/new transit expansion).

This is why the decades they spent as an independent city can't be ignored. The idea that Scarborough is a victim in all of this is nonsense. If you want to level blame, then take a good look at the Scarborough politicians who've routinely made foolish decisions.

I agree with you that the 22 years after amalgamation more should be done. The problem with your reasoning is that virtually nothing has been done, anywhere. It isn't some kind of conspiracy against Scarborough.The TYSSE opened, bringing a line to an area arguably more transit starved than Scarborough. Little-no progress was made downtown. A replacement for the SRT was presented 13 years ago, one paid for and supported by Scarborough residents that would already be running.

You can vote for the Fords if you like, but they're probably the #1 reason such little progress has been made. If Rob Ford had his way the Eglinton Crosstown would've been cancelled too.

If not for them, the Scarborough LRT would be up and running, the Crosstown would likely be done, we'd be close to breaking ground on the EELRT, and we'd probably have progress on a Sheppard East Subway Extension.

 

[kamira51]

Ford and his troglodyte supporters

That's a mouthful

 

[syn]

Back when the idea for a line to the Town Centre was proposed in 1973 (or around then) Scarborough politicians would have liked the subway but they decided not to pursue the idea when they saw the cost. Instead they opted for the High-Speed streetcar link that was proposed by the TTC and supported by Metro. Planners at Metro saw the need to bring rapid transit to STC but saw that a subway would have been to much for the area and Scarborough politicans and planners agreed. In fact the idea of a subway to STC wasn't seriously discussed until Rob Ford came a long and politicized the issue in 2010. Even back in 2006 Scarborough politicians were completely on-board with upgrading the SRT to the newer Mk.II trains. So I wouldn't say it was asked for back in the 80's and was more of a "would like to have" but never went anywhere because Scarborough didn't want to bare the cost of the subway expansion. Now of course when the Province came along and black mailed Metro into using there trains everything came off the rails. Now had that not happened, we wouldn't be having this discussion; had the City also upgraded the SRT to the newer trains back in 2006 we wouldn't be having this discussion either. To think it would have only taken 8 months to upgrade the SRT but now it seems will be looking at a multi-year shut down of the line.

Good summary.

I'd also add that all the fuss over a transfer is relatively new too. I don't think the Fords have even brought it up - all their rhetoric has revloved around 'being treated like 2nd class citizens' and 'tearing up the roads for streetcars'.

 

[ARG1]

It's hard to take a comment like that seriously.

Yes, they had a choice. It was a Scarborough delegation that asked the province to explore the possibility of using ICTS technology after a visit to the plant where the vehicles would be produced. Scarborough council voted in favour of the project without any sort of public consultations. That's on them (though I don't think it would've mattered given the excitement over the technology/new transit expansion).

This is why the decades they spent as an independent city can't be ignored. The idea that Scarborough is a victim in all of this is nonsense. If you want to level blame, then take a good look at the Scarborough politicians who've routinely made foolish decisions.

I agree with you that the 22 years after amalgamation more should be done. The problem with your reasoning is that virtually nothing has been done, anywhere. It isn't some kind of conspiracy against Scarborough.The TYSSE opened, bringing a line to an area arguably more transit starved than Scarborough. Little-no progress was made downtown. A replacement for the SRT was presented 13 years ago, one paid for and supported by Scarborough residents that would already be running.

You can vote for the Fords if you like, but they're probably the #1 reason such little progress has been made. If Rob Ford had his way the Eglinton Crosstown would've been cancelled too.

If not for them, the Scarborough LRT would be up and running, the Crosstown would likely be done, we'd be close to breaking ground on the EELRT, and we'd probably have progress on a Sheppard East Subway Extension.

Let's look at the facts. The Scarborough RT was built because the government of Ontario was working on GO Urban at the time, a series of long distance ICTS routes throughout the province, and when Scarborough was planning to get an LRT, the government swooped in and said "Hey, we need to test this ICTS stuff, and we think this corridor is a great place to test it, you will pay exactly what you did before, and we will pay the additional cost that will be incurred through this technology". Now when a higher level of government steps in and says that they will pay for an upgrade to the line so that you don't pay any of the extra cost, would you turn it down? Not to mention, its a level of government that pays part of your municipal budget every year, so regardless you shouldn't be getting on their bad side. The politicians who voted for the upgrade didn't have much of a choice, and given what they knew at the time, the positives of accepting the upgrade far outweighed the negatives. Of course, we know now that they were basically conned.

 

[syn]

Let's look at the facts. The Scarborough RT was built because the government of Ontario was working on GO Urban at the time, a series of long distance ICTS routes throughout the province, and when Scarborough was planning to get an LRT, the government swooped in and said "Hey, we need to test this ICTS stuff, and we think this corridor is a great place to test it, you will pay exactly what you did before, and we will pay the additional cost that will be incurred through this technology". Now when a higher level of government steps in and says that they will pay for an upgrade to the line so that you don't pay any of the extra cost, would you turn it down? Not to mention, its a level of government that pays part of your municipal budget every year, so regardless you shouldn't be getting on their bad side. The politicians who voted for the upgrade didn't have much of a choice, and given what they knew at the time, the positives of accepting the upgrade far outweighed the negatives. Of course, we know now that they were basically conned.

This is a rather one-sided view of history.

Yes the province had an interest in pushing the technology - but Scarborough council was just as complicit. They weren't innocent victims in all of this.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'd also add that all the fuss over a transfer is relatively new too.

You must not live in a Scarborough. It was a complaint at least in the 90s when I was a teen.

 

[JSF-1]

Let's look at the facts. The Scarborough RT was built because the government of Ontario was working on GO Urban at the time, a series of long distance ICTS routes throughout the province, and when Scarborough was planning to get an LRT, the government swooped in and said "Hey, we need to test this ICTS stuff, and we think this corridor is a great place to test it, you will pay exactly what you did before, and we will pay the additional cost that will be incurred through this technology". Now when a higher level of government steps in and says that they will pay for an upgrade to the line so that you don't pay any of the extra cost, would you turn it down? Not to mention, its a level of government that pays part of your municipal budget every year, so regardless you shouldn't be getting on their bad side. The politicians who voted for the upgrade didn't have much of a choice, and given what they knew at the time, the positives of accepting the upgrade far outweighed the negatives. Of course, we know now that they were basically conned.

Well before they came to Toronto, they did go to Hamilton but they told the Province to pound dirt. As well iirc the Province had locked down Vancouver at some point as well since there demonstration track opened in 83' I believe; a full 2 years before the SRT even opened. Will never really know what would have happened had Toronto said no.

 

[ARG1]

You know full well Doug will never in a million years consider such an idea. First of all it is an LRT which he and his brother have now thoroughly destroyed the reputation of among suburban residence. Second its an LRT which regardless of facts, Ford and his troglodyte supporters will besmirch as a mere streetcar built only for "second class citizens". Third his brother tried and failed to get the subway extended, and Doug himself is a supporter of the Subway and anything else won't be tolerated. If you want the Sheppard Line converted into an LRT then Doug Ford and the Conservatives have to go.

Before you call supporters of any single leader troglodytes, ask yourself if maybe they have a point that needs to be rebuttled. "regardless of facts, Ford and his troglodyte supporters will besmirch as a mere streetcar". Would you be able to look them in the eye and say they're wrong? Let's look at what we're getting. The surface stops on the Eglinton Crosstown are some of the most bare bones pathetic excuses for LRT stops I have ever seen. I once showed the Eglinton Line to someone from Vancouver, as something new that Toronto was building, and he simply responded with "isn't that basically a streetcar?" And this is someone who has no idea what's going on in Toronto politics, or the whole LRT is a Streetcar debacle, because unfortunately, the designers have not put any effort into actually distinguishing this from the streetcar network. Ask yourself this, what's the difference between Finch West LRT, and the Spadina Streetcar? The stop spacing? Longer trains? That's basically it. The average person who isn't too familiar with transit will look at these two things, and will start asking what the difference is, and why is one showing up as a subway line, and they're right to ask that. Under most angles of attack, there is very little distinguishing the Finch West LRT from the Spadina Streetcar, and when "troglodytes" are saying that LRTs are just streetcars and are rapid transit for 2nd class people, they kind of have a point.

 

[syn]

You must not live in a Scarborough. It was a complaint at least in the 90s when I was a teen.

Yes it's a complaint, but outside of this forum it isn't really part of the public discourse around the LRT/SSE.

If it was the primary reason being put forth I don't think it would've moved the needle the way the 'stop treating Scarborough like 2nd class citizens has'.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yes it's a complaint, but outside of this forum it isn't really part of the public discourse around the LRT/SSE.

Like I said, you must not be from Scarborough.

There were plenty of muggles who wondered for years, why they didn't just extend the subway. Why do you think Ford's arguments gained so much traction, so easily?

You can keep telling yourself that this was all the fault of the Fords and that the residents of Scarborough are too stupid to understand what frustrates them and see how that works outs for ya.

 

[kEiThZ]

Of course, we know now that they were basically conned.

Exactly. Scarborough would have been so much better off with a streetcar network. Can't unring the bell now.

If you're a Scarborough resident though, why would you trust a whole other technology after that history, over an extension of the line you actually take to work everyday? Anybody who was serious about selling LRT as an SRT replacement should really have built Eglinton first and faster. After Eglinton was finished, it would have been much easier to argue for the SRT replacement as an extension of the SRT. Instead, for some bizarre reason, Miller's very first LRT candidate was Sheppard.

 

[kEiThZ]

Before you call supporters of any single leader troglodytes, ask yourself if maybe they have a point that needs to be rebuttled. "regardless of facts, Ford and his troglodyte supporters will besmirch as a mere streetcar". Would you be able to look them in the eye and say they're wrong? Let's look at what we're getting. The surface stops on the Eglinton Crosstown are some of the most bare bones pathetic excuses for LRT stops I have ever seen. I once showed the Eglinton Line to someone from Vancouver, as something new that Toronto was building, and he simply responded with "isn't that basically a streetcar?" And this is someone who has no idea what's going on in Toronto politics, or the whole LRT is a Streetcar debacle, because unfortunately, the designers have not put any effort into actually distinguishing this from the streetcar network. Ask yourself this, what's the difference between Finch West LRT, and the Spadina Streetcar? The stop spacing? Longer trains? That's basically it. The average person who isn't too familiar with transit will look at these two things, and will start asking what the difference is, and why is one showing up as a subway line, and they're right to ask that. Under most angles of attack, there is very little distinguishing the Finch West LRT from the Spadina Streetcar, and when "troglodytes" are saying that LRTs are just streetcars and are rapid transit for 2nd class people, they kind of have a point.

Well put.

Opponent of the SSE have decided this was all about Ford and that somehow he duped the people of Scarborough into believing his rhetoric that they were 2nd class citizens. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that Rob Ford might have simply been saying out loud what they felt for years and that was what got him elected. One would think after watching Ford, Trump, Brexit, etc. that people would understand popular frustration. But apparently not.

 

[syn]

Like I said, you must not be from Scarborough.

There were plenty of muggles who wondered for years, why they didn't just extend the subway. Why do you think Ford's arguments gained so much traction, so easily?

You can keep telling yourself that this was all the fault of the Fords and that the residents of Scarborough are too stupid to understand what frustrates them and see how that works outs for ya.

That isn't what I said at all. It's quite telling you're ignoring the actual history of how things came to be in favour of Scarborough always being the victim.

Why haven't the Fords brought it up?

Why do the Fords consistently point to "disrespect for Scarborough", "Downtown Elites" and "tearing up Scarborough roads for streetcars"?

Why was the previous LRT plan consistently supported by a majority of residents?

Why did the Ford rhetoric work so well? For the same reason such tactics have worked throughout history. Divide & conquer, simplistic slogans and preying and people's sense of victimhood rarely fails.

It seems to have worked on some here very well.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why was the previous LRT plan consistently supported by a majority of residents?

One poll is consistently? And since then, those same residents have voted for a mayor who promised to build them a subway. Twice. Last I checked we decide what actually gets done at the ballot box.

 

[kEiThZ]

It seems to have worked on some here very well.

Take the RT and do the transfer at Kennedy everyday for a few years and let's see how you feel after that. There's a reason that Rob Ford's rhetoric worked. And if you actually used the RT regularly you'd understand why.

But hey, maybe you understand my family, friends and neighbours better than I do.