Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[sixrings]

Our lives are already ruined by poor transit.... might as well wait and get the deluxe package for our great great grandchildren who won't even know who we are other than when they do their high school family tree project

 

[hw621]

The LRT was proposed by the city in 2007, with a construction start of 2012 and opening in 2016 after the 4 earlier LRT lines.

With Phase 1 of the DRL currently planned for 2029, it's unliikely that we'll see it extended north to Eglinton until the 2030s ...and how many more years to get to Sheppard? The Eglinton LRT could have been running for a quarter-century by then.

Just in time for replacement....err debate...

 

[robmausser]

Miller and Transit City was the worst thing to happen to Toronto transit in the past 15 years. If they would have just picked one line, and done it properly, we would be so much farther ahead. This includes any 1 of:

1. Eglinton fully grade-separated from YYZ to Malvern (via Mount Dennis, Science Centre, Kennedy and STC).
2. Sheppard subway from Wilson to STC.
3. DRL from Spadina to Seneca College.

Heres my take:

Millers plan was overambitious, and it was too late.

Too late? What do you mean?

Well, the Scarborough RT and Sheppard Subway both should have been LRT from the get-go.

By the time Miller came around, we had a weird, proprietary technology for the Scarborough line, and a stubway to nowhere with Sheppard.

So the Transit City plan was a bit of a mess, but not its fault.

Switching the RT to LRT was a big expense and would have closed down the RT to the point that a subway was "justified" (but not really, it just opened up the debate). But thats not the fault of Transit City. The damn thing should of and was going to be LRT in the first place. Had that happened we'd be riding an LRT extension as we speak right now to Malvern, maybe further.

The Sheppard subway to LRT transfer is...odd. And annoying. But thats not the fault of Transit City. The Sheppard Subway should never have been built in the first place, that should have been LRT from the get go. The ridership didnt demand anywhere near subway levels when it opened and it still isnt there yet. Nothing a 4 car LRT couldnt easily handle.

These oddities both opened up points of contention in Transit City, added to its cost, and allowed for debate which eventually derailed most of it.

Transit City should have been "LRT Expansion Phase 2" really. This all started decades before Miller.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Finally, Toronto is lagging global trend setters in effective transit system improvements. It’s also failing certain particularly suburban areas in this regard. Yet Toronto is booming nonetheless and population and economic development are concentrating in areas already well serviced by transit.

Actually it is not booming in areas that is already well served in by transit - it is booming in areas that you can get away with not having to use transit or drive at all.

AoD

 

[Leo_Chan]

Heres my take:

Millers plan was overambitious, and it was too late.

Too late? What do you mean?

Well, the Scarborough RT and Sheppard Subway both should have been LRT from the get-go.

By the time Miller came around, we had a weird, proprietary technology for the Scarborough line, and a stubway to nowhere with Sheppard.

So the Transit City plan was a bit of a mess, but not its fault.

Switching the RT to LRT was a big expense and would have closed down the RT to the point that a subway was "justified" (but not really, it just opened up the debate). But thats not the fault of Transit City. The damn thing should of and was going to be LRT in the first place. Had that happened we'd be riding an LRT extension as we speak right now to Malvern, maybe further.

The Sheppard subway to LRT transfer is...odd. And annoying. But thats not the fault of Transit City. The Sheppard Subway should never have been built in the first place, that should have been LRT from the get go. The ridership didnt demand anywhere near subway levels when it opened and it still isnt there yet. Nothing a 4 car LRT couldnt easily handle.

These oddities both opened up points of contention in Transit City, added to its cost, and allowed for debate which eventually derailed most of it.

Transit City should have been "LRT Expansion Phase 2" really. This all started decades before Miller.

So you’re saying the person with good (but somewhat flawed) ideas came too late because people who came before them had no ideas so their idea is automatically considered bad?

 

[nfitz]

Well, the Scarborough RT and Sheppard Subway both should have been LRT from the get-go.

By the time Miller came around, we had a weird, proprietary technology for the Scarborough line, and a stubway to nowhere with Sheppard.

The Scarborough RT was LRT from day one - until the Progressive Conservative government interfered and switched it to RT technology. Frank Miller was the Premier when the RT opened, but it was his predecessor that was at fault, not Miller.

Miller was though responsible for cancelling the promise to upgrade the Lakeshore GO line to subway-like frequencies

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The LRT was proposed by the city in 2007, with a construction start of 2012 and opening in 2016 after the 4 earlier LRT lines.

With Phase 1 of the DRL currently planned for 2029, it's unliikely that we'll see it extended north to Eglinton until the 2030s ...and how many more years to get to Sheppard? The Eglinton LRT could have been running for a quarter-century by then.

And that's Toronto in a nutshell. Where way past what's being proposed for DRL. Should be science centre to dundas west station at least.

 

[BurlOak]

Well, the Scarborough RT and Sheppard Subway both should have been LRT from the get-go.

By the time Miller came around, we had a weird, proprietary technology for the Scarborough line, and a stubway to nowhere with Sheppard.

So the Transit City plan was a bit of a mess, but not its fault.

David Miller wasn't dropped from outer space.
He knew that SRT was Mark I since 1985.
Sheppard was known to be a subway in 2002, a year before Miller was elected, and 5 years before he came up with Transit City.
The fact is he knew what these were, and still planned the wrong things. His plan had to consider the existing conditions - it's not that they were being done in parallel and somehow he was shut out from the loop.
As I said before, if he just tried to do 1 thing right - we would be much better off.
Instead, he tried to do a half dozen things half assed - and then the funding was cut so only 1 is actually started at this time.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Instead, he tried to do a half dozen things half assed - and then the funding was cut so only 1 is actually started at this time.

You must have rewritten history - Sheppard LRT received funding and actually started construction, but of course we all knew who ended that process. And guess what, that private sector subway guy still couldn't find private money to build that as a subway. Ditto if LRT conversion had went ahead - it'd be just about ready now. Not perfect necessarily, but I am sure those who wanted subways can keep waiting a little longer.

In the meantime, that "half-assed" Eglinton is attracting redevelopment proposals along the entire stretch - and not just the underground section - and guess what, you will get to ride on that line soon, instead of waiting for vapourware.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Instead, he tried to do a half dozen things half assed ...

Given how much more Miller accomplished than Tory, does that make Tory a quarter-assed or fully-assed?

And then there's arguably the worst mayor ever, Doug Ford. Is he one-twentieth assed or 10 asses?

I guess 10 asses would be 2.5 sestertius.

 

[BurlOak]

Given how much more Miller accomplished than Tory, does that make Tory a quarter-assed or fully-assed?

And then there's arguably the worst mayor ever, Doug Ford. Is he one-twentieth assed or 10 asses?

I guess 10 asses would be 2.5 sestertius.

In Fords 1st 4 months, he got agreement on the connected Eglinton-Scarborough LRT - the best transit plan we have seen in 30+ years. (Yes, better than the DRL to Pape). In less than a year after that, Council took the transit file away from Ford and proudly wears the debacle we are in (along with the Provincial Liberals who quietly pulled the strings).

 

[OneCity]

Given how much more Miller accomplished than Tory, does that make Tory a quarter-assed or fully-assed?

And then there's arguably the worst mayor ever, Doug Ford. Is he one-twentieth assed or 10 asses?

I guess 10 asses would be 2.5 sestertius.

A long-assed pro-union garbage strike and a poorly integrated, transfer filled, car lane removing, mostly streetcar style transit plan were massive non-accomplishments that polarized the City. This type of legacy should not be considered an accomplishment. Miller was good on the operations and maintenance funding side of transit but screwed up big with the details of long overdue capital growth and relief.

Without the absurdity of Millers big ticket "accomplishments' the Fords most likely never come to hold such high political power in the City. Taxes aside Ford ran directly on these big ass mistakes as front-line important platform items.

Tory likely doesn't exist as Mayor without Robs personal life spiral but he has done well being a great ambassador as well as promoting an integrated multi mode transit plan with King st pilot, RER/ST, DRL, SSE, FWLRT and EELRT in an extremely polarized council /City planning environment. I guarantee there will be no need for a seismic political shift after Tory which we witness post Miller.

On the transit front we likely both agree on the need for having better transit O&M funding but that can take a back seat until we can move forward with a capital growth and relief plan that is more detailed oriented and less about the promotion one specific technology

 

[OneCity]

Oxford doesn't need to help shit. They are under no obligation to spend a single penny on anypart of this project. If Oxford is going to contribute anything to the SSE it will be at STC because that's where they benefit the most. What does Oxford have to gain from spending money on a stop at Lawrence East when they gain no monetary benefit from it? The reason Woodbine is being built by the Private sector is because there is a direct monetary benefit for the parties involved.

You are right they don't have to do "shit".

But either does our Governments when they comes to green lighting Oxfords grand cash cow developments. And herein lies the driver behind negotiations going on today. This should have been done by the City and Liberals well before the commitment but still very much worthwhile at this stage to get what we can

Its also irrelevant what part of the line the funds are used. The SCC stop is already funded and it's the other stops that will use the new funds from the development proposals the Conservative are going after. Just like Woodbine there certainly is direct and massive monetary benefit.

Surely you have seen the recent framework proposals from Oxford? "An incredible 36 towers ranging in height from 20 to 65 storeys are proposed"

 

[TrickyRicky]

"Actually it is not booming in areas that is already well served in by transit - it is booming in areas that you can get away with not having to use transit or drive at all."

AoD, an even better description that further raises the question of if Toronto is "falling behind" or if everything is actually moving forward appropriately? If we have so much economic and densification potential in small geographic pockets in the central city (such that they can drive and exceed city-wide economic and population growth expectations) what argument is there for acceleration of the slate of transit improvements? I think the argument then becomes an equity issue not an economic development issue. Basically, we want to enhance suburban transit links by subsidizing suburban residents. That actually becomes the primary purpose of the capital being invested.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Actually it is not booming in areas that is already well served in by transit - it is booming in areas that you can get away with not having to use transit or drive at all.

AoD

Yup. Transit modal share among Toronto's core (PD1) residents is surprisingly low.