Cycling infrastructure (Separated bike lanes)

[reaperexpress]

Sorry about the lack of detail in my last post, I didn't have much time to elaborate.

I think that separated lanes on Richmond are a good idea, but I would leave the existing lanes as is. To separate the lanes they would have 2 options:
1. Move both bike lanes to the same side of the street. This would be a reduction in cyclist safety because at intersections, there will be cyclists coming from both directions at motorists making turns from the perpendicular street, which is not something motorists are not used to. It's basically like riding on the sidewalk.
2. Leave the lanes where they are and put a concrete curb between the traffic lane and the bike lane. This in itself would be a good idea, but if there is enough space for a concrete curb, then we would be better off separating the cyclists and parked cars (where they are present) because they pose a much greater threat to cyclists than moving ones.

Another thing: The Toronto Star article says that the Richmond bike lanes would be the first segretated lanes in Toronto. That's not true. There are already fully separated bike lanes on the south side of Eglinton between Black Creek and Martin Grove.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

why not have the bike lanes elevated to the same level as the sidewalk? (paved with asphalt, with the curb)

this would keep them from becoming canals of water, ice & slush in the winter. it would also make it easier to remove the snow. have the sidewalk & bike lanes slope to the road. and to accommodate existing storm sewers, there can be short metal grate bridges.

such a system that i am talking about would be barrier free and could also be used by disabled people with electric scooters & hand cycles. most importantly, the existing plan with curb at roadside and the bike lanes with a depressed grade compared to the sidewalk & curb would cause a barrier for wheeltrans, wheelchair accessible vans, taxis, etc. with lowering ramps.

the bike lanes need to be at sidewalk level or else you make the properties along these routes inaccessible to the disabled.

 

[GTS]

My hometown of Montreal has lanes like that downtown- their has been talk of 500km more of that type of bike lanes in Montreal-not only downtown as well.

 

[whatever]

Can you elaborate on what you disaster you think would occour when a driver sees a cyclist going "the wrong way"? I can't think of any.

Do you drive? It isn't a problem if a driver sees a cyclist going the wrong way, the problem is that it's much more difficult to see cyclists if they're moving in a counterintuitive manner. There's a certain logic to the way that traffic flows: slower vehicles to your right, faster vehicles to your left, and vehicles moving in the opposite direction beyond that. If I'm making a right turn off of Richmond to say, Bay, I would intuitively check ahead to see if there were any pedestrians or vehicles, and if clear check my blindspot and proceed. That works fine, unless you have a fast moving object approaching you from the wrong direction on your right side. Same problem if you're turning left; if I'm watching the oncoming lane for cyclists I can't also be looking in the opposite direction to see things coming from behind me (at least not very effectively).

 

[MisterF]

I like this much more than the old method of slapping random lines on the map, but I'm a little concerned about the two-way lane on Richmond. It seems like a recipe for disaster to have cyclists going counterflow along that street. I'd rather see two one-way lanes installed on Richmond and Adelaide, so that you don't have drivers faced with cyclists unexpectedly riding in the wrong direction. Either that or move the bike lanes down to Front.

Hopefully that marks the end of the Jarvis lanes as well

Maisonneuve Ave in Montreal and 9th Ave in New York are one way streets with separated bike lanes.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Do you drive? It isn't a problem if a driver sees a cyclist going the wrong way, the problem is that it's much more difficult to see cyclists if they're moving in a counterintuitive manner. There's a certain logic to the way that traffic flows: slower vehicles to your right, faster vehicles to your left, and vehicles moving in the opposite direction beyond that. If I'm making a right turn off of Richmond to say, Bay, I would intuitively check ahead to see if there were any pedestrians or vehicles, and if clear check my blindspot and proceed. That works fine, unless you have a fast moving object approaching you from the wrong direction on your right side. Same problem if you're turning left; if I'm watching the oncoming lane for cyclists I can't also be looking in the opposite direction to see things coming from behind me (at least not very effectively).

You could mitigate this somewhat with cyclist traffic signals, no? We have them on the Lake Shore currently.

 

[GenerationW]

why not have the bike lanes elevated to the same level as the sidewalk? (paved with asphalt, with the curb)

this would keep them from becoming canals of water, ice & slush in the winter. it would also make it easier to remove the snow. have the sidewalk & bike lanes slope to the road. and to accommodate existing storm sewers, there can be short metal grate bridges.

such a system that i am talking about would be barrier free and could also be used by disabled people with electric scooters & hand cycles. most importantly, the existing plan with curb at roadside and the bike lanes with a depressed grade compared to the sidewalk & curb would cause a barrier for wheeltrans, wheelchair accessible vans, taxis, etc. with lowering ramps.

the bike lanes need to be at sidewalk level or else you make the properties along these routes inaccessible to the disabled.

Interesting idea. You shoud send a note to Ford, Minnan-Wong, and your councilor.

 

[k10ery]

I think that separated lanes on Richmond are a good idea, but I would leave the existing lanes as is. To separate the lanes they would have 2 options:
1. Move both bike lanes to the same side of the street. This would be a reduction in cyclist safety because at intersections, there will be cyclists coming from both directions at motorists making turns from the perpendicular street, which is not something motorists are not used to. It's basically like riding on the sidewalk.
2. Leave the lanes where they are and put a concrete curb between the traffic lane and the bike lane. This in itself would be a good idea, but if there is enough space for a concrete curb, then we would be better off separating the cyclists and parked cars (where they are present) because they pose a much greater threat to cyclists than moving ones.

I have a real problem with segregating the existing one way lanes. I am passing cyclists all the time and that requires moving into the traffic lane - impossible with a curb. Ironically if they do #2 on Harbord etc. I'm going to have to ride elsewhere. And I don't see how they could do it any way on Wellesley - it's narrow:

 

[LordWanker]

You could mitigate this somewhat with cyclist traffic signals, no? We have them on the Lake Shore currently.

high probability that the cyclists will ignore those signals

 

[js97]

Great news, One major issue with bikers in this city is that they want their cake and eat it too.. They want the protection of pedestrians, but also want to FLY down streets like a vehicle.

Go to Tokyo, cyclists and pedestrians share the sidewalks. They go at moderate speeds.

Something to consider.

 

[Dan416]

Having seen the curb separated bike lanes in Montreal, I think it's high time we got them here. I applaud Minnan-Wong on this initiative.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Personally, I would like to see the curbed bike lanes on the suburban arterial roads. They can reduce the very wide traffic lanes currently on them a little bit and cut some of the grassy boulevards to create them.

 

[seventies]

As a former Torontonian currently living in Montreal (and an avid cyclist) I absolutely love the idea of separated bike lanes in Toronto. Its safer for just about everyone with the exception of the odd daydreaming pedestrian. It amazes me how often pedestrians dart into bike traffic without even lifting their eyes from whatever gadget they're on. Thus, in my opinion, its also a bad idea to have the bike lane at grade with the sidewalk - I think it will encourage people to walk on it or cross it with utter disregard to cyclists. There's a section in Montreal where this is exactly the case, I actually find it easier and safer to ride on the road against traffic than try to navigate the hoards of dilly dallying pedestrians!

I have to say I am also surprised at the turn around by Rob Ford. I wonder what prompted it? There's no way he can actually claim to be supportive from the start of these lanes. It would be nice to have a protected route into downtown from the east and west along Danforth/Bloor. I know there have been talks and studies but hopefully it develops into something more!

One final note before I'm finished ranting, as a driver and a cyclist, I sympathize with both sides. In Montreal, there seems to be a more peaceful existence between the two groups. My golden rule when driving and cycling is that in order to demand respect from the other group, you have to give it first. Why should a driver care about your safety on a bike if its obviously apparent you don't care about your safety? Running red lights, cutting off cars and general disregard for the rules of the road by cyclists is far too common. You want drivers to respect you and give you space? Show a little respect for yourself first! The converse is also equally true.

 

[SlickFranky]

I have to say I am also surprised at the turn around by Rob Ford. I wonder what prompted it? There's no way he can actually claim to be supportive from the start of these lanes. It would be nice to have a protected route into downtown from the east and west along Danforth/Bloor. I know there have been talks and studies but hopefully it develops into something more!

I don't know that Ford deserves too much credit for this one. All he's done is not publicly vocally oppose it (yet). Surely 6 people will call him to complain and he'll start huffing and puffing about the war on cars again.

 

[TwoDogs_39]

This is a pleasant surprise! It`s about time this city stops painting bike lanes across all kinds of random streets and focusing more on building a cohesive network. I think curbed bike lanes are especially useful on streets with high car traffic. I`ll take the optimistic stance here and commend Minnan-Wong for this one!