Cycling infrastructure (Separated bike lanes)

[Andy_in_Toronto]

@robmausser - you are going into the totally wrong direction with this. No cycle track is here too wide. Most are too narrow to accommodate cycling traffic at rush hour. For example College St.

Funny to discuss the width of bike lanes as that would save or even change anything. We have a populist running a show with alternative facts. Non of the rhetoric will result in real action after the storm.

It’s on us citizens to stand up. First it’s our Mayor who got elected for it!

 

[robmausser]

Why the hell do you even need On-street parking in that section? There is nothing there.

That was almost put there because of this bike lane setup. Prior it was a 4 lane road with no parking.

 

[chrisw]

I suspect she will need to handle this kind of like the Therma Spa / Ontario Place. A give and take type thing. Give Ontario place, get DVP/Gardiner off Toronto's books.

She likely knows she needs to give Doug some sort of "win". Personally I would be most willing to give up the Bloor W bike lanes. As much as losing bike lanes sucks, when they are just painted lines in the road its different. In return, she could bargain for keeping University but removing on street parking or something to appease. Out of all the ones mentioned, ripping up University would be the most insane since they actually redesigned the whole streetscape.

I agree though, she needs to put a very strong foot forward.

Finding a compromise can be a decent strategy. But giving up Bloor Street W for University is stupid. Everyone already knows that ripping up University is stupid, it's hardly a concession for Doug Ford.

She can also fight fire with fire and there's lots of different ways to annoy, obstruct Doug Ford on this issue.

 

[bearcat]

It would be interesting to see if there's an opportunity to give both sides what they want. If the city can provide plans that maintains both the protected bike lanes, and restores the traffic lanes, would the province pay for it? For example, removing the parking lane on University would add a traffic lane back. On Bloor, could both the lane widths of cars and bikes be reduced to restore the 4 traffic lanes and keep the bike lanes?

From a layperson perspective that would make sense. I do get the feeling that for a lot of quick build bike lane implementations preserving car lanes was not really a consideration, the main considerations being the cost and how quickly they can be implemented. However, as @Northern Light discussed just above there are nuances to this.

Sorry, shifting the cycle tracks to the boulevards here is a terrible idea, not just a costly one.

There are no boulevards just a few blocks to the north and to the south.

So you would reinstated 4 lanes of traffic feeding into two (existing to the south); and planned to the north.

Not only would have next to no utility, it would actually slow traffic by creating merges at both ends.

All while chopping down perfectly good trees and making the area more hostile to walk or bike, Hard No.

 

[Northern Light]

100% agree, many bike lanes in the city could have been installed without car lane removal if street parking was not preserved

This is generally not true. I know its intuitive..........

But the parking lane is generally ~2.5M and would not be approved as a through lane without poaching from the Cycle Track.

In most parts of the City (not all), the sidewalks/boulevards are actually considered sub-standard in width and eating into them is not an option.

ie. The Danforth/Coxwell intersection:

Note the absence of parking right at the intersection, with a left hand turn lane and a right hand turn lane absorbing most of that space.

But there is no scenario where the left turn lane is removed. The space in the ROW btw the two Cycle Tracks is only 10.0M - 2.5M for the left turn lane and you have only 7.5M You're not getting 4 vehicle lanes squeeze in there.

There is no room here to add one vehicle lane per direction without removing the cycle tracks entirely.

*****

Where it may be an option is on select roads where boulevards were laid out to support a six or seven lane road configuration at build out, but currently only 4 or 5 lanes have been built., so there is surplus boulevard.

However, in most of those cases, parking is currently illegal in those road segments.

Example: (Victoria Park just south of Steeles); here there is sufficient space available between the surplus boulevard and existing vehicle lane widths to allow for cycle tracks and retaining current vehicle lanes.

Above there is roughly 1M per direction available by lane narrowing and a further 2M in each boulevard without causing undue harm to existing trees.

 

[generalcanada]

So to be clear, when fords talking about "Bloor university and avenue bike lanes"
Is he talking the entire segment from Scarborough to High Park on Bloor?

 

[bearcat]

This is generally not true. I know its intuitive..........

But the parking lane is generally ~2.5M and would not be approved as a through lane without poaching from the Cycle Track.

In most parts of the City (not all), the sidewalks/boulevards are actually considered sub-standard in width and eating into them is not an option.

ie. The Danforth/Coxwell intersection:

View attachment 606797

Note the absence of parking right at the intersection, with a left hand turn lane and a right hand turn lane absorbing most of that space.

But there is no scenario where the left turn lane is removed. The space in the ROW btw the two Cycle Tracks is only 10.0M - 2.5M for the left turn lane and you have only 7.5M You're not getting 4 vehicle lanes squeeze in there.

There is no room here to add one vehicle lane per direction without removing the cycle tracks entirely.

*****

Where it may be an option is on select roads where boulevards were laid out to support a six or seven lane road configuration at build out, but currently only 4 or 5 lanes have been built., so there is surplus boulevard.

However, in most of those cases, parking is currently illegal in those road segments.

Example: (Victoria Park just south of Steeles); here there is sufficient space available between the surplus boulevard and existing vehicle lane widths to allow for cycle tracks and retaining current vehicle lanes.

View attachment 606790

Above there is roughly 1M per direction available by lane narrowing and a further 2M in each boulevard without causing undue harm to existing trees.

Thanks for the thorough reply, I guess in my head I just imagine 2.5 meter wide car lanes working, but I guess that's too narrow. Or maybe the cars are too wide nowadays. Though obviously narrow lanes won't fly on any street that has buses or the potential for buses to run on.

 

[bearcat]

So to be clear, when fords talking about "Bloor university and avenue bike lanes"
Is he talking the entire segment from Scarborough to High Park on Bloor?

He probably doesn't know exactly where any of the bike lanes are. Just what street names to say to appease the anti-bike supporters.

 

[Northern Light]

Thanks for the thorough reply,

You're welcome.

I guess in my head I just imagine 2.5 meter wide car lanes working, but I guess that's too narrow.

It really is, for the most part. It could work on a side street, with no parking, particularly if one-way, but maybe even bidirectional with a 30km/ph speed limit or less.

But on major roads with buses and trucks and birectional traffic...........not happening.

***

Remember in the example I afforded above, at Danforth/Coxwell, if you keep the left-turn lane, you'd have only 7.5M available across 4 vehicle lanes, that's 1.87M per lane.

***

Edit to add, important to remember that intersection capacity is key to any analysis.

Those are almost always the most constrained parts of the ROW w/the most demand.

 

[bearcat]

You're welcome.



It really is, for the most part. It could work on a side street, with no parking, particularly if one-way, but maybe even bidirectional with a 30km/ph speed limit or less.

But on major roads with buses and trucks and birectional traffic...........not happening.

***

Remember in the example I afforded above, at Danforth/Coxwell, if you keep the left-turn lane, you'd have only 7.5M available across 4 vehicle lanes, that's 1.87M per lane.

***

Edit to add, important to remember that intersection capacity is key to any analysis.

Those are almost always the most constrained parts of the ROW w/the most demand.

Yeah, I guess it makes sense that intersections are the biggest issues in terms of constraints of the width of road, since you have to fit in turning lanes as well. But also one of the most important things to get right in order to make sure that traffic moves smoothly. I myself was complaining about the city narrowing the bicycle lane at the Main and Danforth intersection to squeeze in a right turn lane.

 

[ssiguy2]

Toronto could just lower speed limits to 20 km/hr where the bikelnes currently exist. There will be no need for the bike routes & would be good for pedestriens too. Drivers would be so pissed & Ford would quickly reverse course.

 

[Northern Light]

Toronto could just lower speed limits to 20 km/hr where the bikelnes currently exist. There will be no need for the bike routes & would be good for pedestriens too. Drivers would be so pissed & Ford would quickly reverse course.

I'm all for playing hardball............but one needs to do so with a sense of reality.

1) You're asking all those City Councillors up for re-election in 2 years (2026) to tick off a large number of their constituents.

2) That speed limit would apply to TTC buses and streetcars and dramatically reduce the carrying capacity of transit.

3) The province can pass legislation over-riding the City's choices.

I don't see that as the viable strategy here. The Premier has pressure points..........but those aren't the ones I would target.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

The city could just go crazy on signing construction services contracts for all lanes that are at 100% design right now.

If the province wants to cancel the city can just go on a PR frenzy highlighting how many millions are going to go down the drain.

 

[bearcat]

At Bloor and St. George today the concrete edge has been replaced at the SW and SE corner. It's now orange and at least visually looks less hazardous. However the asphalt patching looks very rough in places, and there are random cuts in the sidewalk and the asphalt with a some sort of concrete saw for no obvious reason. The NW corner is just closed off for bicycles, at least there is a "single file" sign.

Unfortunate situation with all the rework needed for what I felt was supposed to be the pinnacle of bicycle infrastructure in Toronto. I really wish they replace the bike lanes asphalt fullly, and not just leave asphalt patches there.

View attachment 600307
View attachment 600310
View attachment 600308

View attachment 600309

Well I was pleasantly surprised today, the asphalt patch job was replaced with nicely poured brand new asphalt .

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

This will really be a defining moment for Chow. Is she just going to roll over or is she going to mobilize a public outcry?

The public outcry will happen with or without Chow. This is putting people's lives in real danger, for nothing but silly culture-war antics.