Condo Fees vs. Home Ownership

[W. K. Lis]

Here's the City of Toronto by-law:

Toronto Municipal Code
Chapter 497 - Article I

Heating


Rented Accommodations

(Adopted 2000-08-03 by By-law No. 499-2000)


497-1. Definitions
As used in this article, the following terms shall have the meanings indicated:

• DWELLING UNIT - An enclosed living area used or designed to be used for human habitation.
  LANDLORD - Includes an owner and any person for the time being managing or receiving the rent of the land or premises in connection with which the word is used, whether on the peron's own account or as agent or trustee of any other person.
  OFFICER - Any City employee assigned responsibility for enforcing this aricle.

497-2. Minimum temperature.
A landlord shall provide heat to a dwelling unit that is rented or leased and that is normally heated at the landlord's expense so that a minimum air temperature of 21 degrees Celsius is maintained in all areas of the dwelling unit from the 15th day of September in each year to the 1st day of June in the following year.

497-3. Inspection

1. Where an officer receives a complaint from a person indentified as the tenant or lessee of a dwelling unit that is normally heated at the landlord's expense, the officer may enter and inspect the premises in which the dwelling unit is located at any reasonable time for the purpose of determining compliance with this article.
2. No person shall obstruct, hinder or delay an officer in making an inspection under Subsection A.

497-4. Offences
Any person who contravenes any provision of this article is guilty of an offence and upon conviction is liable to a fine or penalty as provided for in the Provincial Offences Act

City of Toronto.

Any tenant, even a tenant renting a condo suite, can call the "landlord", or failing that 3-1-1. Don't know what the fine would be.

The forecast for next week is for Wednesday through Friday for lows of 7° or 6°.

I will have the heat off in my house, next week.

 

[Wooba]

I wasn't doubting you.. I just don't see how it can reasonably be enforced. Laws can be made, but they could be challenged. If a condo has turned the heat off, what is a landlord supposed to do? I can't imagine any court upholding this by-law if that were the case.

 

[PinkLucy]

Not all condos control it. Ours doesn't. I can run the a/c in December if I want

 

[Admiral Beez]

For comparison purposes here's what I paid in 2014 on my semi downtown. Some details, nearly zero insulation lath on brick construction, 3 floor plus finished basement, five small bedrooms. Somewhere between 1,900 and 2,000 square feet of interior space.

$247.54 Front Yard Parking Allowance
$1,286.29 Enbridge Gas
$440.68 City of Toronto Utility
$800.00 Home Maintenance & Repair
$871.45 Toronto Hydro
$1,384.08 Home Insurance
$4,468.19 Toronto Property Tax
$786.82 Bell Canada Telephone
$397.18 ADT Security Alarm
$536.16 Rogers Internet
$11,218.39 Total
$934.87 Monthly

That's $934.87 a month to run my home, including all utilities and private parking. Of course maintenance can vary greatly year to year, as I'll need a new roof or appliances eventually. Unlike a condo I have to do my own lawn and property care.

What would I be paying for fees in a 1,900 sq.ft. condo?

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Not all condos control it. Ours doesn't. I can run the a/c in December if I want

So can we.

As for

Admiral Beez

For comparison purposes here's what I paid in 2014 on my semi downtown. Some details, nearly zero insulation lath on brick construction, 3 floor plus finished basement, five small bedrooms. Somewhere between 1,900 and 2,000 square feet of interior space.

$247.54 Front Yard Parking Allowance
$1,286.29 Enbridge Gas
$440.68 City of Toronto Utility
$800.00 Home Maintenance & Repair
$871.45 Toronto Hydro
$1,384.08 Home Insurance
$4,468.19 Toronto Property Tax
$786.82 Bell Canada Telephone
$397.18 ADT Security Alarm
$536.16 Rogers Internet
$11,218.39 Total
$934.87 Monthly

That's $934.87 a month to run my home, including all utilities and private parking. Of course maintenance can vary greatly year to year, as I'll need a new roof or appliances eventually. Unlike a condo I have to do my own lawn and property care.

What would I be paying for fees in a 1,900 sq.ft. condo?

Well there is no such thing as a 1,900 sf condo (or at least not many) but, proportionately, if I add in the indoor parking and a large storage locker, almost about the same, plus we get cable (all channels plus two digital boxes), a gym and a good one (saving gym membership), a sauna, a party room, a library, a laundry room for the big stuff like comforters, a concierge service, landscaping, other services such as garbage removal, no worries about termite inspections or eaves cleaning ... it all evens out. And we are a five minute walk from the subway and almost downtown.

It's a lifestyle choice.

We had enough of the huge Victorian, the maintenance, the worries that pipes would freeze if we went skiing for a weekend, the shovelling, and all the rest of it. It was time to leave.

 

[Benito]

Many condos including ours give us access to both heating and air-conditioning year round any time we need it. Not all buildings give either or but not both.

 

[nrb]

With the temperature forecast to be approaching 30°C, isn't nice that City of Toronto by-laws require the heating to stay on until June 1st. Have tenants in your condo suite, the heat must be on. Just in case it gets below 21°C at night. The by-law requires heating to stay on to keep the unit up to 21°C, at least.

Want to save energy? Can't do that when you have tenants. Want to turn on the air-conditioning before June 1st? It will be a fight with the furnace and the by-law inspectors.

Oh, the heat must be back on starting September 15th, no matter what the weather forecast is.

Another reason for home ownership.

lol are you for real? Complaining because you're not allowed to let tenants freeze?

 

[Admiral Beez]

We had enough of the huge Victorian, the maintenance, the worries that pipes would freeze if we went skiing for a weekend, the shovelling, and all the rest of it. It was time to leave.

We may get there too, once the kids are grown and out. Half in jest, that's two of my friends ensured their kids didn't boomerang back, since they bought one bedroom condos.

On the parking in condos, are you allowed to put a structure in your parking spot? I was thinking of a motorcycle locker, like this...

 

[PinkLucy]

Generally not, but it depends on the declaration.

 

[doug]

Well there is no such thing as a 1,900 sf condo

I guess the 2100SF loft I had doesn't count.

the worries that pipes would freeze if we went skiing for a weekend,

Don't forget the constant need to waterproof your basement and repave your driveway, and the upkeep and maintenance of owning a bobcat and cement mixer

 

[DarnDirtyApe]

For comparison purposes here's what I paid in 2014 on my semi downtown. Some details, nearly zero insulation lath on brick construction, 3 floor plus finished basement, five small bedrooms. Somewhere between 1,900 and 2,000 square feet of interior space.

$247.54 Front Yard Parking Allowance
$1,286.29 Enbridge Gas
$440.68 City of Toronto Utility
$800.00 Home Maintenance & Repair
$871.45 Toronto Hydro
$1,384.08 Home Insurance
$4,468.19 Toronto Property Tax
$786.82 Bell Canada Telephone
$397.18 ADT Security Alarm
$536.16 Rogers Internet
$11,218.39 Total
$934.87 Monthly

That's $934.87 a month to run my home, including all utilities and private parking. Of course maintenance can vary greatly year to year, as I'll need a new roof or appliances eventually. Unlike a condo I have to do my own lawn and property care.

What would I be paying for fees in a 1,900 sq.ft. condo?

My understanding is that property taxes aren't bundled with condo fees... is that right? Same with insurance, telephone and security.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

My understanding is that property taxes aren't bundled with condo fees... is that right? Same with insurance, telephone and security.

Our condo fees do not include property taxes, insurance for one's own unit and contents plus liability if your washer floods your neighbours' place for example, and telephone/Internet. Upgrades (e.g. we have a custom kitchen and bathrooms) are not covered by the condo's insurance which is why owners are advised to get their own insurance if they want to see their units restored to how they renovated them.

Our monthly fees include security as we have 24/7 patrols and concierge, water tax, cable TV for all the digital channels (except TMN, HBO etc.) plus two digital boxes, hydro, heating, amenities (pool, sauna, gym, party room, library, bike room, etc.), and, of course, all maintenance whether ongoing (cleaning, landscaping, snow removal etc.) or otherwise (e.g. new windows).

We have not had a special assessment ($1,500) since 2007 and, as treasurer, I don't foresee one unless something catastrophic happens.

I have to say that our board is committed, knowledgeable, hard-working and astute when it comes to planning ahead. But I recognize that this is not always the case. As Condo Madness once posted, every board is different. A good board makes all the difference.

 

[PinkLucy]

Taxes are not bundled. Some insurance is provided through maintenance fees, but not contents or improvements -- that you need to get yourself (it's not expensive -- I pay $150/year). Phone is not included. Security separate from whatever systems are in place in the building is not included -- I don't know anyone who pays for a separate security system. Some condos include cable and/or hydro, some don't.

And this

A good board makes all the difference.

cannot be emphasized enough. Of course, boards come and go but it's worth doing some digging before buying to get a feel for how the board operates. Are they rubber stamps? Do they let management run everything? Are they penny pinchers? Do they plan? Do they communicate?

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Taxes are not bundled. Some insurance is provided through maintenance fees, but not contents or improvements -- that you need to get yourself (it's not expensive -- I pay $150/year). Phone is not included. Security separate from whatever systems are in place in the building is not included -- I don't know anyone who pays for a separate security system. Some condos include cable and/or hydro, some don't.

We pay a lot more but I suppose it has to do with how nervous you are. For example, we have earthquake insurance.
Also, water escape to cover the cars in the garage in case of flood. Replacement cost on everything. Stuff like that.

Of course, boards come and go but it's worth doing some digging before buying to get a feel for how the board operates. Are they rubber stamps? Do they let management run everything? Are they penny pinchers? Do they plan? Do they communicate?

There are many ways to uncover how good boards are.

For example, a good board is open and transparent. Find out if there's a regular newsletter, newsy website or Facebook group. Communication is key.

Check the minutes of the AGM if you can. Are there a million contentious questions? Or do people seem generally satisfied?

Is there a residents' bulletin board? Have a look. It will reveal whether there is a healthy community.

Is there a corporate bulletin board? Check it. It will show how open the corporation is.

Is there a Welcome Package? Is it up to date?

I have seen people go to an open house (for an existing condo) and never ask to see the locker or parking space, or anything else for that matter. I sometimes check out nearby open houses and even the agents can't tell you what's included or how big the locker is or how far the parking spot is from the elevator.

It's like going to the doctor. People have to take some responsibility for their care. That's why Dr. Google exists.

Re penny pinching. If the maintenance fees haven't kept up with rising utility costs -- as much as 9% per year if hydro is included -- brace yourself. This is difficult to quantify as it is dependent on the age of the building but the cost of running a house rises every year. So if the board(s) have been holding back, there's almost certain trouble ahead.

 

[PinkLucy]

I am always amazed how people will shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars without doing their homework. Boggles my mind.

We do get a reduced rate on our insurance because it's from the same provider we get our car insurance from; we're a long-time customer and get a bunch of discounts . We also keep a high deductible and always have to help reduce insurance costs. But yes, upgrades (we have a bunch), how much you want to cover your contents for, level of liability, etc. all impact price as does age of the building. We had an insurance info session for owners and everyone was paying $200/year or less -- it's a new building. (Our corporation insurance covers earthquakes!)

It's also important to read your corporation condo insurance to know what's covered and what's not -- I know a number of people who were overpaying for their personal insurance because they were in effect double covered, not realizing what was already covered via their maintenance fees. On the flip side, you don't want to leave something out.

It can be a good idea to get your personal condo insurance from the same provider that covers the corporation; it can help streamline the process in the event of a claim.