"Classy" Chinese food - does it exist?

[ksun]

There are also two cultural generalization to Chinese food culture that bother me, although I appreciate that they might be stronger or less strong regionally. The first is that the Chinese love everything new. New things are invested in, appreciated, well patronized. But beyond the initial investment nothing is maintained. Those shiny new Shanghai restaurants you posted will probably soon be demolished or run into the ground. The second is that price equals quality. Expensive food is good because of the price, not because of the taste or quality.

I think you are overgeneralizing a bit.

That Shanghai restaurant (it originally in Hangzhou and was expanded to Shanghai later) has been extremely popular for several years, and has been expanding, not shrinking. And that happened despite the cutting throat competition in Shanghai's restaurant scene. This is not a "shiny" restaurant in Shanghai by any means. If you visit the city and know the life there, that's pretty much the standard for the middle class. Our Chinatown Lee Garden kind of restaurants won't survive in Shanghai for more than 6 months.

I agree with your comments on health concerns. However, there shouldn't be paranoia around it, and let's not make it sound like food in China in general is dangerous. I went back to Shanghai every year and eat with friends all the time, and never for once had problems. You only need to stay away from restaurants that obviously don't look that sanitary, for example, I never eat street food or the small eateries with dirty plates. I can't say for all Chinese city, but Shanghai is decent and improving every year. As long as you stick with restaurants of apparently good quality (not necessarily expensive), the chance of getting sick due to food in Shanghai is not that different from Toronto.

And yes, SOME people tend to believe price equals quality. I think it is because they want to show their wealth more than anything. However, most people are not stupid and don't really frequent restaurants with poor value. For example, my brother's family makes twice the median income in Toronto, and I never see them going to pricy restaurants, almost always the mid-ranged ones (let's say average spending C$20-40). Those who go to pricy restaurants usually because either it is not out of their own pocket (company/government funded) or to impress someone. However, most of them do tend to tolerate much higher price for non-Chinese restaurants, which I find very bizarre - I don't see any rational reason why that should be the case, and that's where the stupidity and ignorance lies. I am not talking about high end French cuisine or seafood Italian, but just regular food such as a pasta or hamburger with fries.

In general, I also think the Chinese food in GTA is not bad for Chinese standards - but that doesn't include areas south of Sheppard, where it is hard to find many which can be considered decent.

 

[ksun]

There is also the Chinese saying that refers to "eating the place", which the negative connotation that you are paying for the decor and not the food per se.

AoD

That seems to apply to western customers more accurately. This is why restaurants such as Joey's and Milestone are popular.
Based on my understanding of Chinese culture, the vast majority of Chinese care more about the food than anything else. For example, on Chinese weddings, most guests don't care about the décor, the flowers, the music or whatever. What they care about most is whether the food is tasty or not. This is why I complained that they SHOULD care more about other things. The "eating the place" kind of people are few and far between.

It is the contrary to North American culture where the food is often of secondary concern. In north America you can invite friends over and provide nothing but BBQ burgers, some cheese and crackers and soda (how many of us have done that?). It is unimaginable in China. You have to have a lot of carefully prepared food (hot dishes) before inviting anyone.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That seems to apply to western customers more accurately. This is why restaurants such as Joey's and Milestone are popular.
Based on my understanding of Chinese culture, the vast majority of Chinese care more about the food than anything else. For example, on Chinese weddings, most guests don't care about the décor, the flowers, the music or whatever. What they care about most is whether the food is tasty or not. This is why I complained that they SHOULD care more about other things. The "eating the place" kind of people are few and far between.

It is the contrary to North American culture where the food is often of secondary concern. In north America you can invite friends over and provide nothing but BBQ burgers, some cheese and crackers and soda (how many of us have done that?). It is unimaginable in China. You have to have a lot of carefully prepared food (hot dishes) before inviting anyone.

We are a practical, pragmatic bunch - ambience really doesn't count for much (and besides, given the inclination for loud conversations and whatnot, it's bit of a waste). What I do care about - and Chinese restaurants have a tendency to fail in the most horrible ways, unless they are at the very top of their game - is the atrocious conditions of the washrooms. My disgust is almost universal. Like honestly - using it for storage space? No soap? Ice in the urinal? Seriously? You got to wonder why the food is so tasty.

Personally, I found the whole idea of getting stuck in a restaurant for two, three hours stifling, decor or not - and quite frankly, Joey's and Milestone is kind of offputting anyways.

AoD

 

[ElDee]

I have been to Casa Imperial twice for dim sum. The first time there was definitely a novelty factor to it, and I was pleasantly surprised that this format existed.

Once I sat down with the 4 of us sharing a small room with another table, I realized that some things never change.

I think I would've preferred a big room with lots of loud people rather than a small cozy room with 2 tables with us being the quiet table. In the former, conversation noise gets drowned out.

The dim sum quality was noticeably nice, for sure! The tea sets and overall presentation was definitely quite a few notches above downtown restaurants. I won't go back though - unless it was for a special occasion where we need to convince the elders that they're being taken somewhere expensive.

It's slightly incongruent to me, bringing together what seems like Victorian High Tea and steaming Dim Sum trays, but that's probably just because of my limited exposure.

 

[Johnny Au]

It is very interesting that a Chinese restaurant in Scarborough has a Spanish name (Casa Imperial), while another Chinese restaurant with two locations along Yonge Street (one at Yonge and Blythwood/Lytton and another at Yonge and Soudan/Berwick) has a French name (C'est Bon).

 

[James]

Another popular "classy" Chinese restaurant is Crown Prince Fine Dining on the northwest corner of Victoria Park and McNicholl in Scarborough. I've been there numerous times and have always enjoyed my dining experience there.

http://www.crown-prince.ca/

 

[ksun]

Another popular "classy" Chinese restaurant is Crown Prince Fine Dining on the northwest corner of Victoria Park and McNicholl in Scarborough. I've been there numerous times and have always enjoyed my dining experience there.

http://www.crown-prince.ca/

I have been there multiple times. I remember you get special price for $2.8 an item if you make your order before 11am, quite a deal. Even at regular price it is not overly expensive and the quality is pretty solid.
It is far better than Rol San but I hate its fake French style décor. Extremely pretentious and tacky.

 

[ksun]

I have been to Casa Imperial twice for dim sum. The first time there was definitely a novelty factor to it, and I was pleasantly surprised that this format existed.

Once I sat down with the 4 of us sharing a small room with another table, I realized that some things never change.

I think I would've preferred a big room with lots of loud people rather than a small cozy room with 2 tables with us being the quiet table. In the former, conversation noise gets drowned out.

The dim sum quality was noticeably nice, for sure! The tea sets and overall presentation was definitely quite a few notches above downtown restaurants. I won't go back though - unless it was for a special occasion where we need to convince the elders that they're being taken somewhere expensive.

It's slightly incongruent to me, bringing together what seems like Victorian High Tea and steaming Dim Sum trays, but that's probably just because of my limited exposure.

What things didn't change? You didn't spell it out...
Normally people would prefer smaller and quieter rooms, because the big hall is simply way too noisy.

There is nothing incongruent about it. China culinary tradition is rich and sophisticated, and you probably think it is not supposed to be this "fancy" only because you are mostly exposed to those crappy Chinatown restaurants with subpar food, ambience and services.

But I agree some of the restaurants here try too hard to look "royal", just look at those tacky names "imperial", "crown prince". What the hell. Their Chinese name sounds better, although too grandiose for my taste too. The Chinese name literary means "Prestigious Family, golden banquet." 15 years ago such fancy names were popular in China too, but not they quickly lost popularity and are replaced with something more simple and humble.

 

[ElDee]

I guess I was making a passing statement to mean that the dim sum was still the dim sum experience that I'm used to from the taste and smells to the sounds, sights, service and end experience. This in spite of the upscale presentation. It was nice and novel, but not enough for me to say that "yeah, these guys have taken the Dim Sum / Chinese food concept to a new level." It was still another weekend afternoon at Dim Sum that looked a bit nicer and cost a bit more.

Anyways, part of my original musing also had to do with the design of the food itself and the eating format inherent to such food, not just limited to the decor and presentation of the restaurant. This gets into the question of what exactly is Chinese food and what is fusion?

One distinction between classy and not classy that I use in conversation is to look at a sizzling hot plate with meat and veggies on it (steak, seafood, etc). It's usually presented as a common dish as is many Chinese meals are. This eating format in itself does not lend well to being presented in a format that aligns with the "individual servings with silverware and crisp folded knapkin" style that, generally speaking, lends itself to a more 'classy' outward appearance.

Here's something that I would imagine would surprise me (I am totally a culinary laymen just day dreaming here): A place that serves an individually portioned plate of maybe 3 or 4 freshly prepared dim sum items, but not necessarily in the traditional shapes. A siu mai would for all intents and purposes still be a siu mai in composition, but shaped like a crab cake for example. Throw a single shrimp rice roll on it, and a scoop of sticky rice - the kind that comes out of the banana leaves (AKA "sticky rice chicken"). Garnish it with one or two bok choy or a few strands of snow pea leaves. Eat it with a knife and fork, knapkins in the lap. Sold for $20 a plate.

Does that make sense? The food is the same, but the eating format is "upscale." With Casa Imperial, the food is the same, and the eating format is the same, but the decor is upscale. As I'm typing this, I think the 'common plate' concept is one of the big things that keeps the experience from feeling 'upscale.'

Maybe that's what it is. Chinese food for whatever reason lends itself better to be eaten in a 'family style' format, and that makes it challenging to present in a 'fancy date' format.

 

[wild goose chase]

I've never been but I remember hearing about Fishman Lobster Clubhouse -- would that be considered a fancy/classy Chinese place?

 

[wild goose chase]

Maybe that's what it is. Chinese food for whatever reason lends itself better to be eaten in a 'family style' format, and that makes it challenging to present in a 'fancy date' format.

A lot of cultures not just Chinese have that style of dining, whether it be Indian, Ethiopian, etc.

 

[ElDee]

I've been once. It was definitely an eating experience.

But no, doesn't go too high on my 'classy' meter.

I may be letting some cultural biases and sensibilities colour my opinion of what's classy though. For example. I can't help but think that even outdoor bistro style French or Italian food is classy even though it's pretty much "shorts and t-shirt sitting on cast iron iron patio furniture."

 

[ElDee]

A lot of cultures not just Chinese have that style of dining, whether it be Indian, Ethiopian, etc.

Totally agree, which is the generalized motivation for this discussion topic - are there ethnic foods out there that are impossible to serve in an upscale restaurant?

Anyways, it's getting close to dinner time. Gonna go get myself a low-class working man's burger perhaps.

 

[ksun]

Well if you start using a fork and knife to eat Chinese food, it ceases to be Chinese. Less than 0.1% Chinese use forks and knives to eat food.

For some reason people including many Chinese consider fork/knife as a sign of upscale -- I can't disagree more. Neither a fork or chopsticks are superior but I have the confidence to say chopsticks work far better on Chinese food. How does one eat a bowl of noddles using forks? Chinese food has a lot of diced meat or vegetable which works best with chopsticks also, just like a knife and fork works better on large pieces of meat.

So no, the chopsticks should stay and should in no way be replaced just to please western customers who if like Chinese food should make the effort to use them.

 

[ksun]

I've never been but I remember hearing about Fishman Lobster Clubhouse -- would that be considered a fancy/classy Chinese place?

It is expensive but not exactly fancy. The decor and the service shows that.
Lunches there are of great value. Can you imagine having lobsters and other seafood for about $30 including tips?