Church-Wellesley Village

[threnody]

It's fun to hook up, but surely people don't just go to gay clubs just for sex. It's fun to experience an intimate atmosphere and drink/dance/talk, etc. Who would really prefer to sit at home in front of a keyboard instead of actually socializing with living, breathing, people?

Of course the sex in this case is far from guaranteed, but when I left Woody's last night with the same friend I went with I didn't feel like I wasted my time! Those looking for guaranteed sex will hit up the bathhouses, and they seem to be alive and well despite the internet.

In addition, hooking up online may be convenient and expedient, but it's filled with pitfalls. People looking to kill time, using fake or ancient photos, etc.

I think the problem isn't really that gay people aren't flocking to the village like they used to. When The Barn first reopened it was crazy busy, and what people found was a huge disappointment. Wait in line to get in, then get sent up to the third floor, where there is nothing but ANOTHER line to get down to the main floor. Hence, during that initial period, two of the three floors went unused because if you ventured upstairs you'd be stuck waiting in line to come down again. The initial experience was subpar and now they missed their chance. It's mostly dead outside of College Night.

Fly and Straight are doing really well, Crews was crazy busy until it was shut down, and Buddies always has long lineups as well. Alibi only shut down because the owner died. Church Street Bar was ridiculously mismanaged and failed to market itself consistently. If anything, I think the market is ripe for someone with a brain to swoop in and provide and decent experience where those 25+ can have a few drinks and dance without being crushed like sardines at Straight or having to deal with the drug crowd at Fly.

 

[Torontovibe]

It's fun to hook up, but surely people don't just go to gay clubs just for sex. It's fun to experience an intimate atmosphere and drink/dance/talk, etc. Who would really prefer to sit at home in front of a keyboard instead of actually socializing with living, breathing, people?

Of course the sex in this case is far from guaranteed, but when I left Woody's last night with the same friend I went with I didn't feel like I wasted my time! Those looking for guaranteed sex will hit up the bathhouses, and they seem to be alive and well despite the Internet.

In addition, hooking up online may be convenient and expedient, but it's filled with pitfalls. People looking to kill time, using fake or ancient photos, etc.

I think the problem isn't really that gay people aren't flocking to the village like they used to. When The Barn first reopened it was crazy busy, and what people found was a huge disappointed. Wait in line to get in, then get sent up to the third floor, where there is nothing but ANOTHER line to get down to the main floor. Hence, during that initial period, two of the three floors went unused because if you ventured upstairs you'd be stuck waiting in line to come down again. The initial experience was subpar and now they missed their chance. It's mostly dead outside of College Night.

Fly and Straight are doing really well, Crews was crazy busy until it was shut down, and Buddies always has long lineups as well. Alibi only shut down because the owner died. Church Street Bar was ridiculously mismanaged and failed to market itself consistently. If anything, I think the market is ripe for someone with a brain to swoop in and provide and decent experience where those 25+ can have a few drinks and dance without being crushed like sardines at Straight or having to deal with the drug crowd at Fly.

I agree! The Internet hookup sites are 99% lies and stupidity. I know a lot of people who have tried it and very few have had any success at all. The thing is, for many younger gay guys, they never get past the Internet stage. A lot of those guys have an anti-gay village/gay community attitude. Most seem to be very closeted. So, where as in the 80's, those same guys would have forced themselves to go to a bar, now they take the easy route and just hope for the best on Gay.com. Then they get a warped opinion that all gays are crude and ill-mannered because that seems to be the norm online. When online bull-shit is your ONLY experience with gay life, it tends to make you want to avoid the whole gay scene. I just think the Internet has had a terrible effect on younger gays just coming to terms with their sexuality. That is probably part of the reason that gay bars have lost a lot of business.

Back in the 80's gay life was really fun and I found it quite easy to meet friends and get community support. I'm really glad I came out in the early 80's and got to experience that. I would hate to have had my first gay experiences from the net. I have met more liers and social retards online, than I care to admit to. I've always had much better luck meeting quality people in the bars and the Gay Village in general. I gave up on internet dating a long time ago. I don't think it works for anyone. (well, at least anyone that I know lol)

 

[threnody]

It's a function of the fact that in this society where the LGBT community is increasingly accepted in general that there is less of a need for a 'Gay Village'. Instead of joining a community 'just because you're gay', you can join other communities and just happen to be gay. What we're seeing is what happened in NYC over the past decade or so - you get pockets of LGBT activity throughout the city. There are now more queer friendly events at venues throughout the city now, and I see no reason why they should be concentrated in one area.

There's definitely less of a need, but there is still a need. Widespread acceptance is awesome, no doubt, but there's still a lot of allure that comes with pointing to a space and saying "this is ours." In the same vein, Toronto is very accepting of other ethnicities, but there are still ethnic enclaves all over the city.

Like it or not, there is a gay culture. Some gay people prefer to embrace their hipster or bohemian side, and that's great too. But some of us like to have three little blocks to call our own.

Also, it serves an important purpose for people coming from less tolerant places or slowly easing their way out of the closet who might not feel safe being themselves anywhere else.

 

[Urban Shocker]

For me, over the past several years, Church Street has assumed nostalgic appeal as a reminder of a phase in the evolution of gay space that I associate with the '80s and early '90s. It eclipsed an earlier set of meeting-places that dated from the early to late '70s - some located in back alleys just off Yonge between College and Bloor, mostly hidden away upstairs, or in dreary straight-owned places on Yonge like the St. Charles. The form those earlier meeting places took reflected a warrior society fighting for basic equal rights, but it was also a world of discretion - a gay world that disappeared some time ago, along with the bars and clubs we found refuge in. By contrast, there was an openness to Church Street that those earlier joints didn't have; rights were being won, more people were coming out, and bars and restaurants with large windows facing the street reflected that new openness. And I think we reached another tipping point about a decade ago, perhaps around the time same-sex CPP pension benefits were granted and the issue of gay marriage surfaced, and we've been moving to new models of gay space - decentralised across town - since then.

 

[toraerach]

I agree! The Internet hookup sites are 99% lies and stupidity. I know a lot of people who have tried it and very few have had any success at all. The thing is, for many younger gay guys, they never get past the Internet stage. A lot of those guys have an anti-gay village/gay community attitude. Most seem to be very closeted. So, where as in the 80's, those same guys would have forced themselves to go to a bar, now they take the easy route and just hope for the best on Gay.com. Then they get a warped opinion that all gays are crude and ill-mannered because that seems to be the norm online. When online bull-shit is your ONLY experience with gay life, it tends to make you want to avoid the whole gay scene. I just think the Internet has had a terrible effect on younger gays just coming to terms with their sexuality. That is probably part of the reason that gay bars have lost a lot of business.

Back in the 80's gay life was really fun and I found it quite easy to meet friends and get community support. I'm really glad I came out in the early 80's and got to experience that. I would hate to have had my first gay experiences from the net. I have met more liers and social retards online, than I care to admit to. I've always had much better luck meeting quality people in the bars and the Gay Village in general. I gave up on internet dating a long time ago. I don't think it works for anyone. (well, at least anyone that I know lol)

As a gay man who grew up/came out in the Internet age, I think you're giving the Internet way too much credit in destroying Gay Villages. First of all, the closet-types who lurk on websites for quick hook-ups are probably the same types who would have just stayed in the closet before the Internet allowed them to cyber-cruise. Secondly, it's become a lot easier for the rest of us to be open about our identities in everyday life. It's probably a lot easier to meet other gay people off-line now than it has been in the past: through mutual (gay or otherwise) friends, family, school, work, etc. Thirdly, Queer cultural products are easier to find outside of speciality shops now. I can go to my local library, bookstore, video store, etc. and find Queer-themed literature, film, music, etc. And yes, like with any other book or film the Internet makes finding Queer-themed media much easier if those resources fail.

There are other reasons young gay people don't flock to the village the way they used to. Real estate, I would imagine, is a big one. It's not easy for any young person to find affordable accomodation downtown, in the village or elsewhere. Without that regular local crowd, that demographic becomes occasional visitors who can't make it out there as easily as they might like. Local businesses adjust by targetting themselves to older more established customers that live nearby and younger people are further priced out of the village.

For all its faults, the Internet has made life a lot easier for gay people, especially those just figuring themselves out. There are many resources out there on the web to help people cope with coming out, telling people they're not sick or going to hell, etc. Additionally, you can do a quick search and find out that there is a gay village in Toronto and that it is on Church Street, that there are gay events you can attend with all of the details, and much much more. Besides, it's not like only gay people meet on-line. Many straight people meet each other on-line too - for sex, for relationships, for friendships, etc. Nor is it like a good chunk of those people meeting people on the Internet are doing so exclusive of meeting people at bars/clubs/wherever else.

Maybe the case is just that gay people who don't/can't live in the Village for whatever reason don't have the time to make it down there as much as they would like because of work, school, other activities, etc.

 

[chriskayTO]

For me, over the past several years, Church Street has assumed nostalgic appeal as a reminder of a phase in the evolution of gay space that I associate with the '80s and early '90s.

I couldn't have said it better myself. As someone from the younger generation who never needed this "warrior" mentality, as you put it, I find the village serves more of a reminder of the accomplishments of those who preceded me, and makes me thankful that I don't have to fight the battles that have already been won.

Also, as someone who works with a diverse array of people from the queer community, it makes me mindful of the different experiences that people bring to the table, depending upon their generation.

To link it back to the discussion of the Church & Wellesley Village, I find it a bit of a historic anachronism, since most of my activities and friends are not in the village. That said, I can appreciate the history.

 

[Urban Shocker]

My earliest memories of the scene in Toronto date from the early '70s, a time when more and more gay men were understanding the political implications of their sexual orientation ( well, okay, there were some wild pre-AIDS era parties too! ). It was a time when guys began to move beyond a purely social definition of what gay was, adopting activism to lobby for changes to legislation and using our visibility to demystify "gay". The earliest Pride ( as it came to be known ) gatherings were smallish events in places such as Grange Park, with a couple of thousand men ( and a few women ) turning up; inevitably they were political statements as much as relaxed celebrations in the sun. In some respects, with the political battles now mostly won, we've returned to a purely social definition of what it is to be gay - a luxury, given the historical journey we've taken, but one we all enjoy regardless of whether we were actually on the long march itself.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

I couldn't have said it better myself. As someone from the younger generation who never needed this "warrior" mentality, as you put it, I find the village serves more of a reminder of the accomplishments of those who preceded me, and makes me thankful that I don't have to fight the battles that have already been won.

Also, as someone who works with a diverse array of people from the queer community, it makes me mindful of the different experiences that people bring to the table, depending upon their generation.

To link it back to the discussion of the Church & Wellesley Village, I find it a bit of a historic anachronism, since most of my activities and friends are not in the village. That said, I can appreciate the history.

Yes, as usual a very thoughtful post by US.
I'm also heartened to read observations from a younger person who is mindful of the difficulties that preceded generations before him and an appreciation for those who were a part of organizing and effecting positive change.
The Village remains a place for the gay community to live, play, shop and socialize not to mention being a considerable tourist draw. I must say that I've seen somewhat of a shift in the past 6 or 7 years as the area continues to change, mainly in the demographics of the neighbourhood. It's good change though, it keeps the area friendly, vibrant and interesting.

 

[SunriseChampion]

I couldn't have said it better myself. As someone from the younger generation who never needed this "warrior" mentality, as you put it, I find the village serves more of a reminder of the accomplishments of those who preceded me, and makes me thankful that I don't have to fight the battles that have already been won.

Also, as someone who works with a diverse array of people from the queer community, it makes me mindful of the different experiences that people bring to the table, depending upon their generation.

To link it back to the discussion of the Church & Wellesley Village, I find it a bit of a historic anachronism, since most of my activities and friends are not in the village. That said, I can appreciate the history.

Well said, though, I'm not going to lie: I see the area almost as something that's kind of always been there. I sort of put it on the same level as any other neighbourhood I find to be interesting and unique, including various ethnic enclaves.

This isn't to say I'm not appreciative of any past significance and the struggle for rights that accompanied that but I don't assign it a particular importance in my own life.

I'm pretty young as well and maybe I've had it relatively easy. My social circle is also mostly young and so of a different time and place and they've readily accepted the way things are. The family, not so much, but that's another story.

What I mean to say: I like The Village just like I enjoy St Lawrence Market, Liberty Village, etc; each for its own reasons, neither having a particular significance in my life.

PS: I may be crazy but I think the influence of the Internet may be being over-stated here. Even if only anecdotally: the best way to meet people, is to actually meet them, straight up. This will always be true, I would hope.

 

[Brandon716]

Internet dating sucks ass imo.

 

[OttoSchloss]

bachelorette parties on the premises of gay bars = ultimate cock block, gay bar ruination.

just kidding.

By the way, I heard from a friend that Crews will reopen in May and they closed because of "administrative" reasons. Whatever that means. Sounds like an audit.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

bachelorette parties on the premises of gay bars = ultimate cock block, gay bar ruination.

just kidding.

By the way, I heard from a friend that Crews will reopen in May and they closed because of "administrative" reasons. Whatever that means. Sounds like an audit.

Sort of administrative, yes. I can tell more of what I know soon.

 

[debaser]

how many times as crews closed for long periods now?

i don't get the appeal of that place, i can't believe the lines to get in there.

there really isn't many great places to go now though.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

It's been closed for liquor infractions, but not for any length of time that I can recall.

 

[simply Dan]

The last time Crews/Tango was closed for liquor infractions was during Pride last summer I believe.