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Cherry Street Nightclub

So where do we put music venues? Where are people going to go for entertainment? If a large club can't work in the middle of nowhere, where can it work?
It can stay right where it is....but *contain* the sound. They can deafen everyone inside for all I care, I refrain from making any comments on Darwinian principles, but just like a movie theatre using similar sound levels, there's an onus to keep the sound in. THAT is what the issue is about, not whether they do it or not.
Re-development in this area is not exactly right around the corner. Should we abandon the area and leave it empty while we wait for this potential re-development plan? Besides...the club is already there operating 5-7 days a week right now, so it's not going anywhere anytime soon, especially after the $10 Million in renovations they recently did.
Now this is an issue that's going to rankle a lot on this board, especially the moderators. As it stands, unless the City (or some other level of Gov't, or tri-level like Waterfront Toronto) puts an offer on the property to acquire it, if planning/zoning has plans in the future for that building, or right of access over the property, the government agency looking to stifle plans today for a project in the future will lose before the OMB.

IIRC, the City can put a one year freeze on development on land it does not own. There are provisos to that at the Federal level I believe, but the Feds would not get involved in the nitty-gritty of this unless, as has happened many years back, criminal activity was involved.

I care not an iota for the present owners, one of which used to be the sole owner (on paper) going back decades, but they're playing a deviously clever game on this...and know they can win.

What they won't get their own way on is the emanating noise level, but they will on expansion.
 
This isn't the middle of nowhere. Given how sound travels over water, this can materially affect existing and under construction residential neighbourhoods -- if you look at the record of what was happening with the Docks before they clamped down on the noise, it was incredibly disruptive. I am not saying there should not be a club, or even a big club, just that the "middle of nowhere" is a lousy, and wrong, justification for what is proposed. I would think that the appropriate justification is a concrete plan that meaningfully addresses all of the impacts.

Nobody is suggesting that we abandon the area or leave it empty. Where did you see that? People are saying that a massive new club which abandons the existing conditions on the existing liquor licence is a bad idea. Not sure how you get "let's sterilize the lands" from that.
Excellent post.
Two key words in this: [I would think that the appropriate justification is a concrete plan that meaningfully addresses all of the impacts.]
"Impact" (acoustical) and "Concrete" (as in bunker).

There are practice studios and have been for close to forty years in the basement of the half of the building to the east (it was all a single pulp and paper operation as recently as forty five years ago). No-one ever hears them unless the basement door is left open, and the individual room doors are too. A number of the studios built by myself, besides those already inside massive poured concrete cisterns, were built out of concrete block with sand inside to retain the sound, as well as offer real security. Sound levels in some of those rooms approach that (expressed in dB) of what you'll find inside the clubs to the west, the difference is that it is *contained* and hardly anyone other than the thousands of players over the years to go through there know about it.

I may have to erase this later, but Sprackman (now the silent half-partner of 11 Polson) always was a very difficult and un-liked person a decade before he even opened his first club there. And I'm being diplomatic. I leave it at that for now, headed down there in a few hours to jam, and yes, it gets way to fffffing loud. That's more a factor of tone than intensity though...but the sound doesn't propagate far outside of the studio (one of many there). And it shouldn't, and everyone is happier for it.
 
Notwithstanding the appeal of a waterfront view, this is exactly the sort of business that should be in a Woodbine Live! district by the airport. Out of the way yet close to 905ers and a short drive from downtown.
 
From the Globe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-waterfront-alarms-residents/article33665060/

I am not sure how something like no outdoor concerts is considered "unenforceable", when it is pretty clear from the neighbours that it was well-enforced.

AoD
It was extremely quiet and deserted of 'clubbers' down there last night. As to enforcing noise violations of that magnitude, it can be done remotely and be on a 24 hour basis:
Monitoring noise measurements, analysis and reporting
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Brochure noise
https://munisense.com/noise-measurement

It would be extremely simple to have a 'threshold alarm' feature attached that would immediately alert Toronto/Ontario enforcement staff to intervene.
Noise is defined as any unwanted sound.Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 591 requires that no person shall make, cause or permit noise or vibration at any time, which is likely to disturb the quiet, peace, rest, enjoyment, comfort or convenience of the inhabitants of the City.
[...]
To file a complaint of amplified music emanating from speakers from bars, night clubs, restaurants, cafes, patios and buskers please see: Bylaw enforcement - amplified music in bars - nightclubs - restaurants - cafes - patios - buskers
[...]
Bylaw enforcement - amplified music in bars - nightclubs - restaurants - cafes - patios - buskers

Contact Municipal Licensing & Standards, Business Licensing Enforcement to report noise as a result of loud amplified music emanating from speakers from:

  • bars
  • night clubs
  • restaurants
  • cafes
  • patios
  • buskers
Contact Info:

Contact List - ML&S - 4 - Bylaw Enforcement - Licensing Enforcement

Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 591 - Noise
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_591.pdf
http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/84/101003307284.html




 
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It was extremely quiet and deserted of 'clubbers' down there last night. As to enforcing noise violations of that magnitude, it can be done remotely and be on a 24 hour basis:

https://munisense.com/noise-measurement

It would be extremely simple to have a 'threshold alarm' feature attached that would immediately alert Toronto/Ontario enforcement staff to intervene.
http://www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/84/101003307284.html



If a business requires 24/7 compliance monitoring they shouldn't get an operating license.
 
If a business requires 24/7 compliance monitoring they shouldn't get an operating license.
Many businesses run on conditional monitoring. The only real question, in this case, is the real enforcement Provincial (with very real legal consequence) or just City bylaw? I'm not sure that a City enforcer has the legal power to 'shut down' an operation without a court order.

Since the water itself comes under Federal jurisdiction, there might be some route to impose conditions at that level. Bear in mind, citizens have had a rough ride trying to get present laws enforced, and the City is pretty gutless on these issues:
T.Barrett Says:
August 11, 2014 at 8:35 pm | Reply

Our family has been enduring loud disturbing patio music at a restaurant outside our children’s bedrooms for two years now. We have long been abandoned by the Counsel of New Tecumseth that is filled with friends of the restaurant’s owner. We have been asking the Ontario Alcohol and Gaming Commission to enforce the Ontario Liquor Licence Act for over a year with no success. It seems the Ontario AGCO have chosen to stop enforcing the part of the Act that deals with patio noise. There is no justice in this province for families!
View how bad it can get with no help from anyone:

The Ontario Liquor Licence Act states:

“Ontario Liquor Licence Act, R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 719

46. The holder of a licence that applies to outdoor premises shall not
permit noise that arises directly or indirectly from entertainment on the
premises or from the sale and service of liquor to disturb persons who reside
near the premises. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 719, s. 46.”
https://queenbeac.wordpress.com/problems-w-bars-in-your-area-here-are-some-tips/

It's interesting reading the comments at that blog. The City will act if there's a zoning violation. Historically, from my own experience and reading on it, the City is like a deer in the headlights when it comes to enforcing noise regs.
 
From the Globe:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-waterfront-alarms-residents/article33665060/

I am not sure how something like no outdoor concerts is considered "unenforceable", when it is pretty clear from the neighbours that it was well-enforced.

AoD

What I find most shocking about all this is that the proposal contemplates that more than half the capacity of 15,000 would be accommodated on outdoor patios (7,971 people). Good luck mitigating those noise impacts.
 
Be aware that:
Proposed changes to noise bylaw has people sounding off: Hume

New rules would makes city even noisier, critics charge — and they’re especially worried about the waterfront.

By Christopher HumeUrban Issues and Architecture
Thu., Feb. 11, 2016

You can’t see it, touch it or smell it, but it’s everywhere around us, even in our own homes. And although we’re all used to it, it can be enough to drive you crazy.

We’re talking about noise, of course, and if we’re not careful — or lucky — there could be a whole lot more of it in the city’s future.

That’s what many Torontonians fear now that City Hall is looking at changing its noise bylaws. Though one might expect the intention was to quiet the urban roar, tone down the cacophony and generally introduce an element of quietude to the city, it could well achieve the opposite.

“It’s not a good news story for our community,” admits Toronto Centre-Rosedale Councillor Pam McConnell. “We’ve spent a lot of time lately talking about decibels. The proposed changes to the bylaw could set us back a decade.”

McConnell is referring to the neighbourhoods that line the waterfront from Bathurst all the way to Yonge and beyond. As the veteran downtown councillor explains, “We have to deal with different circumstances in this part of the city. The problem is that when you’re close to Lake Ontario, sound bounces off the water. Noise changes direction when you put wind and water together. We’ve had the ability to control noise down here, but we’ve had to use various mitigation strategies.

“My view is that the bylaw doesn’t need to be changed. The proposed changes to the bylaw would not allow for unique situations. But the city wants a standardized mechanism. It takes a one-size-fits-all approach. It says 85 decibels is fine no matter where it is, as long as it’s between 7 a.m. and 11 p.m.”

According to the Canadian Hearing Society, “Typically, researchers indicate that if an individual were exposed to 85 decibels for eight hours a day over a number of years, this would result in hearing loss.”

Waterfront resident Ulla Colgrass argued in a letter to Mayor John Tory and local councillors sent this week: “That is equal to a snow blower running all day in your home.”

As she also pointed out, “New York City’s decibel limit for homes is 42 decibels.”

“To make matters worse,” Colgrass continues, “residents can only contest excessive noise by having an inspector from Municipal Licenses and Standards (MLS) visit their homes to measure the sound levels. The MLS’s few noise inspectors failed to monitor outdoor noise levels in the past, so how could this new system work for us?”

Don’t forget, among its pleasures, life on the waterfront includes more than a dozen outdoor concert venues and hundreds of live music events annually. During the summer, there are the party boats that ply the harbour like so many floating sound systems. Then there’s Billy Bishop Toronto Island Airport, where planes come and go every few minutes.

But even in other areas, noise levels can be deafening. With all the construction going on, the trucks and equipment, there’s little respite anywhere in Toronto.

At the same time, we make trucks that emit ear-splitting beeps when they back up and traffic lights that make strange sounds when they change colour. Even in the loudest city, noise is thought to be a good way to get people’s attention, to keep them from getting run over by a delivery truck moving in reverse.

At some point, however, these good intentions get lost in the din. Besides, by the time we hit middle age, many of us have hearing loss.

The changes to the bylaw are intended, it makes clear, to be “less restrictive.” It signals a city open for business.

That sounds good, but only if you don’t have to listen to it.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...noise-bylaw-has-people-sounding-off-hume.html
 
By far the best researched article so far. I'd say TorStar has it in their sights, understandably so, and they're following the paper trail as well as the more obvious sound violation.

A technical point, albeit it makes little difference to those affected: The sound doesn't "bounce off the water" to travel efficiently. The waveforms, especially the lower ones, *attach* to flat unobstructed surfaces.
 
Noise complaints remind me of how suburban Toronto is. If Toronto is going to be a big city we need to abandon the small town mentality. If it is not going to be a big city than we can all live with inevitable outcome of suburbia. Beside what area of Toronto isn't noisy? I live on Eglington and all night cars are driving past my windows making noise, I would much rather hear drunk people having fun and music than the incessant noise of cars and idiots who like to screw around with their mufflers. The world's biggest night club would bring in tourists, liven up the city, bring in money, and bring in jobs. If noise is the only con against this, then I'll just go out and yell at everyone even louder than the night club would be until they accept it. Plus it's not like there is anything even close to the docks, the islands literally have a lake dividing them, and the only thing on cherry street is a supermarket, sugar factory and bus depot.
 
Noise complaints remind me of how suburban Toronto is. If Toronto is going to be a big city we need to abandon the small town mentality. If it is not going to be a big city than we can all live with inevitable outcome of suburbia. Beside what area of Toronto isn't noisy? I live on Eglington and all night cars are driving past my windows making noise, I would much rather hear drunk people having fun and music than the incessant noise of cars and idiots who like to screw around with their mufflers. The world's biggest night club would bring in tourists, liven up the city, bring in money, and bring in jobs. If noise is the only con against this, then I'll just go out and yell at everyone even louder than the night club would be until they accept it. Plus it's not like there is anything even close to the docks, the islands literally have a lake dividing them, and the only thing on cherry street is a supermarket, sugar factory and bus depot.
You're welcome to your opinion. The vast majority would disagree, and for some odd reason, democratic principles give them a voice in the matter, a voice that should be heard without having to scream at the top of their audible limit and still be unintelligible.

In all due respect, you haven't a clue on the issue. Noise (admittedly an arbitrary measurement based on more than just sound pressure) is what determines the legal basis of complaint in this instance. And it goes way off the scale.

Explain that to your neighbours Brad...and just to let you know, I'm still a playing rock musician (albeit the emphasis in later years is on tone, not just volume) and it offends me and others who play even louder as neighbours to that establishment. But we have the sense and social decency to contain the 'noise'. They don't. Try and discern the difference. Ear plugs might be necessary...perhaps even permanent deafness...socially and physiologically.
Plus it's not like there is anything even close to the docks, the islands literally have a lake dividing them, and the only thing on cherry street is a supermarket, sugar factory and bus depot.
And with deafness comes blindness too it seems.
 
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You're welcome to your opinion. The vast majority would disagree, and for some odd reason, democratic principles give them a voice in the matter, a voice that should be heard without having to scream at the top of their voices and still be unintelligible.

In all due respect, you haven't a clue on the issue. Noise (admittedly an arbitrary measurement based on more than just sound pressure) is what determines the legal basis of complaint in this instance. And it goes way off the scale.

Explain that to your neighbours Brad...and just to let you know, I'm still a playing rock musician (albeit the emphasis in later years is on tone, not just volume) and it offends me and others who play even louder as neighbours to that establishment. But we have the sense and social decency to contain the 'noise'. They don't. Try and discern the difference. Ear plugs might be necessary...perhaps even permanent deafness...socially and physiologically.
And with deafness comes blindness too it seems.

I'm not even sure what point you're getting at with the first part of your reply, I never insulted democratic process.

I was clearly joking about the yelling at people because noise complaints are a bit redundant in a city. A city is by definition a noisy place, and Toronto has tons of noise, and a night club wouldn't really be all that disturbing. For instance, for two nights straight a car alarm went off across my building from 11 pm to 6 am. Cops didn't do anything about, as it's just a part of living in the city. When I lived at Jarvis and shuter I heard the helicopters buzz over my place all night long. When I lived on bloor near landsdowne cars and motor cycles with loud mufflers would rev their engines under the bridges to echo the loud noise all day and night. People just seem to pick which type of noise they don't like, and that seems to be noise created by business. Which IMO is much better noise than noise created by private citizens, because business brings in wealth and creates more vibrant cities. Also if you choose to live in a city, you should expect the noise that comes with it. If you learn to embrace it, you may even be happier for it cause you will never stop noise in a city. Although, Toronto is in general a much quieter city than most.
 

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