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CATHEDRAL SQUARE - fictional piazza concept
- Thread starter 3Dementia
- Start date
It's not up to the substantial heart of the preservationist community to tell me what to think, and I have never claimed to speak for them. Who are you adma, their automaton?
So there are 3 types of people out there? And they are either Modern-lovers, or Heritage-lovers, or Disney lovers? Glad to know that you can recognize at least one shade of gray.
adma, all I am saying here is that if a building that is deemed to have value by the powers that be or various architecture buffs - whether I deem it beautiful for the sake of expediency when writing on this forum, or you list its importance in the city's architectural history owing to the presence various features - and that building were to be torn down to make way for something new - (as is the case at the 1 Bloor East site now) - then I would rather see that facade relocated than to have it disappear entirely.
If there were one spot in the city where these facades could be displayed like museum pieces, then great! Why not? If you don't like the idea, then don't visit the spot. Right now this hypothetical location is a big parking lot. 3D is suggesting a piazza surrounded by buildings that evoke Toronto's past. I'd rather see Toronto's actual past there if it came down to that. If the heritage community would rather see these facades disappear rather than see them preserved them in a new setting, they are cutting off the nose to spite the face.
So violent. Get some therapy. Seriously.
You have read me wrong if you think I am saying that heritage buffs are crying out for faux historic architecture. I am saying that Towered seems to want it, and some others here are chomping at the bit for it too. I would not call them heritage buffs: these are the Vic Schtick crowd, the sorts who think Stern sits at the top of the pyramid. They probably have Trisha Romance and Thomas Kinkade paintings on their walls, and there are a lot more of these people than there are actual heritage buffs. (So maybe I should let them tell me how to think. Strength in numbers, you know...)
I agree with you completely in regard to all three of those alterations to the Eaton Centre - the original architecture was far better in every case. Why even mention that here? I have never indicated any love for any of those fashion crimes.
Spot on.
Natch.
It might, more for some than others, which is unavoidable of course. I am less inclined to be satisfied by what I call Vic Schtick, etc. The Morgan, which you mentioned in another post, is an example where I agree that a very good job was done evoking the older buildings of its area. That's pretty good PoMoConDo.
I am still a fan of that plan!
I'd love to see a square here - it's a much more interesting plan than what's actually on the (rather dusty) table. Our two views of how it would work best are not diametrically opposed.
Okay, maybe I should not have used 'nearly never', but I am comfortable with substituting 'very rarely'. Deft design leadership would be needed to keep it from all going kitscheroo.
You're right - I often side with Archivist. Not sure where he went wrong here!
And yes, I think the dialogue here is worth it too. Lots of fun!
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3Dementia
Senior Member
At the risk of being repetitious, I would suggest that a key point of this little exercise is to once in a while to set aside narcissistic inclinations, wipe the ego from our sleeves and not try to be too smart despite the risk of bad reviews. In others words, get outside our heads and think differently about urban opportunities that almost everyone (residents/taxpayers) might embrace. We need not always cater to the wannabe intellectual elitists... they are a small enclave who live in rarified elevations that are lean on oxygen, respect for other opinions and (often) real world-li-ness.
We should remember to communicate with people who occasionally live outside their own heads, people walking on the streets, people planting their garden every spring, people who just want to enjoy living in this town.
We should remember to communicate with people who occasionally live outside their own heads, people walking on the streets, people planting their garden every spring, people who just want to enjoy living in this town.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
This square is a great idea and I agree with everyone in that it could work pretty much as is...it avoids what I consider one of Dundas' Square's flaws - it's not cluttered with metal and concrete structures, and not immediately surrounded with a belt of busy roads. This square reminds me of the little 'piazza' tucked in behind Commerce Court, especially the fountain, but that one feels like a '9-5 office workers eating lunch' zone, not a 24/7 urban living room.
I think the buildings on the east side of the square could be a bit taller and still respect heights in the neighbourhood...but maybe it just seems a tad exposed because the rendered buildings are white and don't jump out the way the colourful structures on the west side do.
I think the buildings on the east side of the square could be a bit taller and still respect heights in the neighbourhood...but maybe it just seems a tad exposed because the rendered buildings are white and don't jump out the way the colourful structures on the west side do.
3Dementia
Senior Member
Khatru, the east side of the square was basically a guess on my part... the neighbours on Mutual (very, very close), sunlight issues (particularly in winter), and maintaining as large a footprint as possible for the open space itself
Essentially, the east side's job is to provide the sense of enclosure I believe is needed to create that "urban living room". This may limit its functionality. There is definitely the opportunity to increase densities on the north/east part of the site... but sooner or later this eastern elevation needs to get down to the 2/3 storey scale of Queen Street.
Essentially, the east side's job is to provide the sense of enclosure I believe is needed to create that "urban living room". This may limit its functionality. There is definitely the opportunity to increase densities on the north/east part of the site... but sooner or later this eastern elevation needs to get down to the 2/3 storey scale of Queen Street.
MisterF
Senior Member
I think you could do 4 storeys on Mutual easily. We'll probably end up seeing towers at this spot eventually anyway.
I see your point about limiting the amount of space that gets built on, but I do think there should be some vehicle traffic at the north side of the square. Contrary to Scarberian's point, most of the great squares of the world have busy roads on at least one or two sides. Dundas Square's problem isn't the surrounding streets, it's the lack of a centrepiece, imo.
I see your point about limiting the amount of space that gets built on, but I do think there should be some vehicle traffic at the north side of the square. Contrary to Scarberian's point, most of the great squares of the world have busy roads on at least one or two sides. Dundas Square's problem isn't the surrounding streets, it's the lack of a centrepiece, imo.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Yep...it's not so much that they're not high enough, just that they sorta seem not beefy enough 1.) because they fade into the sky being white, compared to the red and black on the west side and 2.) because I read them as 2 storeys (even though they look more like 4), due to the placement of columns and cornices. I only mentioned it because these types of scale issues really can make a huuuge difference in terms of a space being comfortable, and since there's so few squares/piazzas in Toronto, it'd be easy for us to get the ratio wrong. I definitely see a nice balance along the "overbearing to exposed" continuum on the west side of the rendering. I wouldn't mind offering up Mutual's sunlight for sacrifice to guarantee the Square is perfectly scaled.
MisterF: In Dundas Square, the natural focus is on the Eaton Centre to Metropolis axis...in other words, across a busy intersection. I don't know if a centrepiece is enough to shift this.
MisterF: In Dundas Square, the natural focus is on the Eaton Centre to Metropolis axis...in other words, across a busy intersection. I don't know if a centrepiece is enough to shift this.
3Dementia
Senior Member
MisterF: actually the inspiration for this is much more Piazza Navona (completely free of traffic 99% of the time), not Trafalgar or Times Square.
As Khatru coined it... an urban living room.
Italians built most of Toronto and a true "piazza" experience is what I was interested in portraying (Queen Street notwithstanding).
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Excellent, I was going to mention what I felt were the square's connections to Navona in my first post. I am currently doing a small massing model in Sketchup - I'll post it as soon as its finished.
adma
Superstar
Well, maybe the problem is that you're framing it all in these insipid terms of "facades", like it's still 1985 and a cutting-edge-acceptable concept or something. So under those circumstances, maybe it's actually worth cutting off the nose to spite the face--better no heritage than a out-of-date provincial-mentality travesty thereof, etc...
NB: relative to my posted articles, I'm actually not *that* negative t/w certain cited facadectomizin' examples around town (BCE/Brookfield, f'rexample); though I'm not advocating them as examples to be uncritically followed, either. And at least at BCE/Brookfield, things were either left in situ or not transplanted that far...
Tewder
Senior Member
I love the idea of a 'building graveyard' approach. Purists be damned! Take the concept even further, as far as I'm concerned.
3Dementia
Senior Member
Most curious... an alternate plan?
adma
Superstar
Look at things this way. Remember the preservationist fuss over Oxford's planned chew-up'n'regurgitation of the Concourse Building? Well, imagine if they decided that they needed a clean slate for Richmond-Adelaide, and offered Concourse over to some "Cathedral Square" entity. If you thought the earlier protest was wild, imagine the protest over something like that...
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Slightly. More like a 3 dimensional realization of your render on the first page. Its not exact but its very detailed so my Sketchup is crashing all the time...I'll try and post it later tonight or sometime tomorrow morning. Don't hold me to that though...