CATHEDRAL SQUARE - fictional piazza concept

[adma]

I have to say that I love the idea of a 'facade graveyard', and there may be a fundamentel difference between this and 'facadism' in general as practiced ad hoc on various buildings throughout the city. An honest and deliberate installation of historical facades (imagine facades as 'pictures' hanging on a background canvas of more minimal modernist structures), ones that would have been destined for the wrecking ball anyway, could be approached and ultimately interpreted in a more artful way, avoiding the line between it and mere disney-esque faux trickery.

Not so sure. Something still seems a little Pioneer Village-ey (or at least Markham-heritage-subdivisionesque) for comfort about the "facade graveyard" concept. And all the worse if it gives "incentive to demolish", i.e. "gee whiz, we can donate the facade to the facade graveyard, and then do our stuff." Again, akin to Markham, or Whitby back when it was shipping historic buildings to Cullen Gardens. Ultimately, you can't avoid either the facadism or Disneyism pitfall.

Eric Arthur might have loved your concept. Unfortunately, he died in 1978; which is kind of my point. The credibility of the "facade graveyard" concept died around then, too.

Go a little SW of the proposed Cathedral Square, to the old Bank of Nova Scotia at Church + Queen. Its appeal isn't just in being a facade, it's in being whole, and in decent shape, and still BNS after all these years. To suggest it'd be a good thing to "intensify" the BNS site and ship the facade to Cathedral Square, well...

 

[Tewder]

Not so sure. Something still seems a little Pioneer Village-ey (or at least Markham-heritage-subdivisionesque) for comfort about the "facade graveyard" concept.

I agree it would be a fine line, but unlike the approach you mention above the critical difference would stem from the deliberately and unapologetically contrived approach of the graveyard, with absolutely no concern for reproducing 'history' here, nor any concern with tricking or deceiving as 'historic'. The reclaimed heritage parts would be more 'art' than architecture per se.

And all the worse if it gives "incentive to demolish", i.e. "gee whiz, we can donate the facade to the facade graveyard, and then do our stuff."

This would be unacceptable, but a facade graveyard approach would not be a limitless repository for abandoned buildings, it would basically be an art installation. Maybe it is the term 'graveyard' gives a wrong impression of the idea...

Again, akin to Markham, or Whitby back when it was shipping historic buildings to Cullen Gardens. Ultimately, you can't avoid either the facadism or Disneyism pitfall....

Those approaches aren't always pitfalls. It very much depends on the mandate, the context and the circumstances at play, as many issues of conservation do.

 

[interchange42]

Your post almost makes sense.

You have no idea how quickly I (try to) write these things...

BTW, I just sent you a PM slagging you for posting all over the place but not here. Then you posted. Ah well...

When I do get time to check into the Forum, I always head for P&C first - force of habit and all...

What's your point? I've reported that Kyle's "real brain" took another job. My final rant via email to him essentially said "you've taken a friend and turned him into an enemy". Abusive? Nope. Factoids.

Factoid maybe, but I can see where the word 'enemy' would get his back up. For anyone in the public eye (especially one who doesn't employ security) the word enemy has to raise some hairs on his neck. He doesn't know if you're stable or not.

FYI, I have never spoken to Kyle Rae in the past 10 years, not even a 30 second "hi", despite thinking his office was the perfect launch-pad for good ideas for the city. Needy? Perhaps. Stalker? I've never even made a noise complaint and he's my councillor.

It is unfortunate that what his staff told you could be set up regarding direct communication never was. Tell somebody something, and it creates expectations. Expectations unfulfilled by politicians leads to voter discontent...

It's a shame that Cath Sq will become a debate about K. Rae because he's had way too much attention already, without lifting an arm to help.

Cath Square might deserve it's own discussion.

Maybe Rae and his ilk need to see a groundswell of public support for a scheme before they are convinced to put any time into it themselves. I know Toronto councillors end up with more on their plates than they can take on, so I would imagine that they must have to experience some minimum threshold of pressure that likely starts higher than that exerted by one voice. Therefore I'd say get the public on board with the Piazza concept, and you may actually get some traction from City Hall. The starting point for such movements these days is through Facebook - why not start a group, and see whom yo can sign on from UT and the public at large?

Finally, I would suggest apologizing for using the word 'enemy', or the debate will always remain personal with Rae, and that's not what you want. Since you don't own the land, you need everyone on your side to help convince the owner(s) - current or future - that this would be the way to go. Without the local councillor, you won't get the planning department; without them, there will be no zoning changes proposed... Otherwise Cathedral Square is dead in the water until at least the next municipal election.

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[3Dementia]

If there's an apology due, it is from Rae to me... calling me "abusive" was stupid for savvy politician, particularly since he could have just said "he should talk to the owner" (which of course I tried to do) and left it at that.

The Toronto Star article bears out why he's taken a friend and turned him into an enemy... contempt. Remember, I've never even called his office. I've never traded emails with "himself". So basically he heard from his EA that I sent one nasty (final) email after being blown off completely after waiting patiently for months. The email before the final email, was a congratulations on your job email to the new EA.

If "there's nothing we can do" as Rae now claims (as opposed to all the things they could do/were promised/never materialized)... then your position about the idea being dead in the water without his help... is dead in the water too isn't it?

Sometimes what goes around, should come around... notwithstanding your sage advice.

 

[spaced]

Hey 3D,
Have you thought about submitting your concept to Spacing? They're having an urban design competition:
http://spacing.ca/thinktoronto/

 

[3Dementia]

Thanks Jay, I'll follow-up on that...seems like a great fit.

 

[Dan416]

Hope you win 3D!

 

[3Dementia]

Shameless bump... why?

When is a "community" not really a community? When all the promises, chest-thumps, excitement about the "possible"... amount to ... nothing?

Just sayin'... don't offer to meet me at the station when you aren't gonna show up.

 

[torontoguy]

I love this thing, mostly for the vision and desire to do something good and beautiful for the city in the face of political resistance.
I joined this discussion late, but has anyone started a petition? We really need to press city hall more for quality public space/art.

 

[syn]

Wow, nice work 3D I had no idea this had gotten press coverage.

 

[3Dementia]

Thanks syn... don't know why the architecture section seems so invisible.

Torontoguy, you will have a guaranteed place in the newbie hall of fame if you expedite a petition to keep the idea alive... though I have my doubts about whether anyone will sign it.

 

[torontoguy]

"News" from April 1

Maybe you've seen this but this is from some years ago, from Project for Public Spaces, put out on April 1. Oh, but were it true....


O Canada! Placemaking Sweeps the North Country

April 1, 2006, Ottawa, ON - Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced today the creation of a new Cabinet department: The Ministry of Placemaking and Public Space Revitalization (PPSR).

In what amounts to nothing less than a fundamental reorganization of Canada's government, the Prime Minister told reporters today that the Ministries of Public Works and Government Services; Transport, Infrastructure and Communities; and Human Resources and Social Development will now be under the jurisdiction of the new Ministry of PPSR. Surprisingly, PPSR was also vested with the authority to overrule the Ministry of National Defence in determining when to deploy troops. "Sometimes," Harper explained, "a few well-placed café tables and chairs--and maybe an ice cream vendor--is all that's needed to make the nation safer for its children."

Glen Murray, former Mayor of Winnipeg and outspoken proponent of PPS's "Power of Ten," was appointed to head the new Ministry. His first act as "Place Czar" was to order that all new and existing developments within 100 metres of a body of water include vital public spaces at the ground floor. "Our waterfronts look like something straight out of a Le Corbusier sketchbook. We've got to get a grip! We've almost completely forgotten how to create active uses around the base of buildings. And besides, the guy's been dead for decades. Enough already."

Murray proceeded to announce a national competition to create the Best Civic Square in Canada. While meeting with PPS staff in January, it dawned on him that no major Canadian city had a great civic space on the order of Luxembourg Gardens in Paris or Las Ramblas in Barcelona. "Many folks have tried to convince themselves over the years that Nathan Phillips Square in Toronto is world class, but they're just fooling themselves," said Murray. "We're Canada, for the love of Pete. We can do better!"

By and large, the idea has enjoyed huge support from every corner of the country, especially among farmers market organizations, city departments of parks and recreation, teens and young adults, cycling and hiking enthusiasts, and neighbourhood heritage preservationists, all of whom take credit for making the Ministry a reality.

 

[savevp]

If I were to have planned this square, I would have disposed with the condo towers and replaced them with open parkland or a decorative walkway. I just think that they close in the square too much and might possibly be too intrusive (for lack of a better term) into the square and may cause overcrowding. I could also see the square ending up as a somewhat private space for condo residents rather than a more open, public space. In addition, one must take into account parking, transit and condo property (tennis court, outdoor pool, etc.)

Too bad there is no plan for this right now because it would be an excellent plan.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ I think that the condos look like they'd add a good kind of closed-ness to the square. Without the high density/vocal point of the condos, the sheer hugeness of the space would probably make it feel a bit too empty, or at least that's the feel that I get from the renderings. High condos and high density will also couple with the shops to bring a lot of regular pedestrians to the area, which will encourage even more people to come. The buildings on either side look like they'd do great to make it seem closed in, but I think 3 stories should be the minimum (I believe that plan has 2 stories on the east side) to make it seem less open and more welcoming.

But I don't think I've said it before, but I think this is absolutely amazing. I can tell there's been a lot of thought gone into this fantasy plan, and I'd be happy as a clam to see this built downtown. Great, great work

 

[savevp]

Good points.

I have always been a supporter of new condo developments, but I just think that squares should be open to the surrounding neighbourhood rather than hemmed in by towers. I do agree though that it might be too wide and maybe some shops may be nice. A coffee house and a few restaurants and that square should be full day and night.