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Captain John's Restaurant (1975-2012)

To be honest it's terribly unfair to be taxing him as if he owned that piece of land. Obviously the City should have been levying some rent and tax dollars from his restaurant, but the figures quoted are ridiculous.

We should just forgive his debt, let him sell his ship on the cheap to retire with that money, and move on.

It's not like he was making insane amounts of money (or much money at all) while he was operating his restaurant.
 
I think I read somewhere that it was unseaworthy and would require some investment to even move it to a scrapyard. Is it not possible to dismantle it where it sits and load the scrap onto a barge?
 
RC8 said:
To be honest it's terribly unfair to be taxing him as if he owned that piece of land. Obviously the City should have been levying some rent and tax dollars from his restaurant, but the figures quoted are ridiculous.

We should just forgive his debt, let him sell his ship on the cheap to retire with that money, and move on.

It's not like he was making insane amounts of money (or much money at all) while he was operating his restaurant.
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most commercial leases require the tenants to pay for the property taxes on top of base rent, or it could be a gross rent but taxes would be factored into the price.

IIRC i think i read somewhere that the taxes have accumulated over 10 years, so $550,000 isn't alot considering interest penalties too.
 
drum118 said:
Really!!!!!! Have you seen the kids use the Simcoe Deck as a slide and play area?????

If they built a wave deck along the lines of Simcoe, it will be a huge improvement for the area as well attracting people to it.

Some nice water fountain needs to be added to the water edge.

Having a place for kids to play would help also.
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The Simcoe Wavedeck is superb in its wild design and the interesting views and feeling of the grade change. It attracts people right to the water's edge, so it has been successful as a public space project. However, I noticed that the other, less radical wavedecks like the one at Spadina are underused while people are drawn to the one at Simcoe.
 
Honestly, I never see the wavedecks getting that much use. People who like architecture and value design awards might be projecting when they view them as wild successes. I thought the Simcoe deck was way cool when it was being constructed, and was very pleased when I saw how little kids were making it their own when it opened. But I rarely see anyone sitting on the benches. Most people who cross north of the water instead of using the bridge stay off the deck and walk along the sidewalk. They hardly even cut the corner over the deck. Far more people use the old bridge than cross at the wavedeck. Maybe the wavedecks will see better use when Queens Quay is redone and the south sidewalk is widened for more recreational activity. Maybe they would have been wonderfully successful if, instead of a few nibbles at the design, the city had been bold enough to build the full plan, especially the bridges allowing for a continuous walk along the water. I view Simcoe as a failure because they spent five million dollars building this award-bait design and couldn't be bothered to move the unsightly dinghy dock that sits five feet in front of it. In the same way the Rees deck has been degraded by the metal dock that has been attached to it by the powerboat rental place. The wooden deck and docks they constructed along the water between Queens Quay Terminal and Harbourfront have been a great success, making the space more open and able to accommodate larger crowds. The wavedecks, however, are a clever design that look fabulous as renders and as photographs in design magazines, but haven't seen great adoption by the public down on the ground.
 
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hawc said:
That's sweet of you. Should we forgive all restauranteurs' debts? Or just the ones with cute boats?
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Look at the situation at hand. The city is not losing any money by forgiving the debt, it's not like someone would have been paying property taxes for that piece of 'not even land'. Shutting his restaurant down and kicking him out of the dock is the right thing to do. Impose a reasonably fine if you wish for choosing to avoid taxes instead of closing his restaurant as it became unprofitable.

As things stand we want this guy to pay the city half a million dollars for not making much money at all in a location that wouldn't have been producing much money anyway.
 
If he was operating a business he's expected to pay all taxes associated with that business whether that business was successful or not.

It doesn't matter if that business operated on land or not. There are taxes oweed to the city that are associated with all businessess. Period.

We don't have one set of taxes and rules for successful businesses and another set for failures.

The same rules apply to him that apply to every other poor smuck in this city.

In reality he probably should have been put out of business and his boat sold for scrap to repay all debts years and years ago.

Fair is fair and the city has been beyond patient in this situation.

You know this as well as I do.
 
This case is quite obviously unlike the vast majority of restaurants in Toronto and elsewhere. People are taxed property taxes for owning a particular piece of land. Captain John is expected to pay property taxes as if he owned the land where the boat is sitting in but doesn't get to sell that land onto someone else.

He is effectively being taxed over an asset he cannot sell or use to his advantage in any way - and which will be taken from him regardless soon enough. If this was a building somewhere in land the captain could sell the land, pay his debts, and move on. As things stand his hands are pretty much tied.

I'm not arguing he is not to blame for getting himself into this ridiculous mess, but really what do we gain as a society by demanding this (financially) poor guy pays half a million dollars?
 
RC8 said:
This case is quite obviously unlike the vast majority of restaurants in Toronto and elsewhere. People are taxed property taxes for owning a particular piece of land. Captain John is expected to pay property taxes as if he owned the land where the boat is sitting in but doesn't get to sell that land onto someone else.

He is effectively being taxed over an asset he cannot sell or use to his advantage in any way - and which will be taken from him regardless soon enough. If this was a building somewhere in land the captain could sell the land, pay his debts, and move on. As things stand his hands are pretty much tied.

I'm not arguing he is not to blame for getting himself into this ridiculous mess, but really what do we gain as a society by demanding this (financially) poor guy pays half a million dollars?
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It is the cost of doing business. He knew he owed taxes, and he had no issue paying taxes back when Captain John's was actually making money. He made a poor business decision to keep running the business despite it being a money loser. The city is not an insurance policy for poor business decisions.

He knew what he was getting into when he started the business. He knew he did not own any land, wouldnt be entitled to any compensation when the business folded in return for the small piece of land he rented from the city, and knew that selling the business would be contingent on the purchaser having a lease in order to do business in that location. If he was a smart business man, and was that concerned for his retirement, he would have sold this business long before the tax man came calling. Instead, he let if fall apart to the point where no one wants it. There is absolutely nothing for anyone to gain from purchasing the business. Just look at Captain John's reviews online, and even on this website. The business died long ago.
 
City taxes are to help pay for city SERVICES and the rate of tax is based on the property evaluation. I assume that Captain John's was assessed in the normal way (value set based on a sale by a willing seller to a willing buyer) so can see absolutely no reason why his City taxes should be forgiven. He also owes rent to the Port Authority for tying his boat at one of their quays and to Waterfront Toronto for occupying part of their land with the access pathway and foot bridge.
 
DSC said:
City taxes are to help pay for city SERVICES and the rate of tax is based on the property evaluation. I assume that Captain John's was assessed in the normal way (value set based on a sale by a willing seller to a willing buyer) so can see absolutely no reason why his City taxes should be forgiven. He also owes rent to the Port Authority for tying his boat at one of their quays and to Waterfront Toronto for occupying part of their land with the access pathway and foot bridge.
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It doesn't sound to me as if they took into account the non-renewability of his lease and the fact the 'land' it was sitting in was effectively undevelopable. The taxes were disproportionately large for the amount of profit he was making, for the amount of services he used, and for the flexibility (or lackthereof) of the location.

As I said, this is undoubtedly his own fault, but he is being treated as if he owned the land for the purposes of taxes, and as if he is merely renting a docking space for the purposes of the options provided to him. It's not a matter of whether he deserves to bailed out or not, but of solving the present situation. What do you propose? Throw him in jail and not get the money anyway?
 
I remain skeptical. He's said he's had buyers for his boat several times before. Prospective buyers eventually back out when learning all the details (back taxes, no lease, price to tow).

On the bright side, it looks like WaterfrontToronto is serious about the foot of Yonge St. finally. It's only a matter of time before the boat is gone and WT gets to work on the flagship slip.
 
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