Can't we all just get along? The car, bicycle, skateboard, pedestrian et al debate

[James]

Regarding traffic laws, it's virtually impossible, and often not safe for a cyclist to follow all traffic rules to the letter of the law.

I agree...but only because nobody else follows the rules to a tee. If everyone did, it would be perfectly safe for both drivers and cyclists to commute harmoniously on public roads.

 

[neubilder]

Neubilder, consider reading my previous post.

Something along the lines of Michael Jackson's 'Take a Look at Yourself.....' is what you are saying?

No, a cyclist can have the best intentions but ultimately the cyclist is at the mercy of the drivers around them. WRT drivers, it's about being reasonable, open minded, and accommodating, and having consideration instead of contempt for others.

 

[RC8]

A shocking number Torontonians are small-minded pricks. I've cycled extensively in cities in many parts of the world and I'd have to say the most unforgiving red-necked drivers are right here in Toronto. I'd bet it's the same lot that voted for Ford.

Downtown Toronto's connectedness with its suburbs are on one hand one of the reasons why our city is doing so well (and BMO et al. haven't moved their operations out of the core) but the downside is we have to deal with the aforementioned red-necks very often (especially on the roads!).

Sometimes I sound like a broken record in this regard, but I really want deamalgamation.

 

[neubilder]

I agree...but only because nobody else follows the rules to a tee. If everyone did, it would be perfectly safe for both drivers and cyclists to commute harmoniously on public roads.

We seem to be talking about different things. My point was that cyclists do not have the capacity to behave as cars all of the time, and thus cannot be held to the same rules *all of the time*. If they tried to, they might be sitting ducks waiting to get struck down. Cars must always follow the rules and be safe and predictable, in order for cyclists to be safe. Of course it's a double standard - the same standards cannot apply. Drivers often use the argument that cyclists don't follow the rules as justification for their rage. As a cyclist I will do the safest thing even if it involves breaking the law and as long as it doesn't endanger or cause distraction to others.

 

[brianmac]

I've gone through a recent cycling experiment here in our lovely town. Being a competitive mountain biker I've happily stayed off of the roads and enjoyed the trails and limited my worry to trees and rocks.

Following a recent injury (broken ribs) I've been unable to venture back into the forest so I have borrowed a road bike and tried to embrace the city from a new perspective. I've been doing fairly lengthy multi-hour rides and have quickly figured out that bikes are not terribly welcome on our streets.

I tried...Bayview, Leslie, Kingston road, Don Mills, Lawrence. Aside from the appalling condition of many of the roads it was clear there just is no sense of drivers and cyclists. I was momentarily thrilled to find the bike lane on Pharmacy...but sadly it had already been scraped clean by city workers.

Today I fought my way up Leslie, squeezing between the curb and the slow moving traffic, trying to stay in front of cars at the lights so they might have some chance of seeing me.

It got me thinking about a business trip to Holland where seemingly every road had bike lanes and people made their way merrily through the streets of Amsterdam on all forms of bikes. The point was, the bikes were accounted for and accommodated.

Maybe you just have to decide to build it and perhaps that was part of Miller's plan, who knows. Sadly, I think I may have to start throwing the bike on the roof and driving to Bloomington side ride or Stouffville or some other plan. I'll keep looking and perhaps there are better options.

 

[CDL.TO]

We seem to be talking about different things. My point was that cyclists do not have the capacity to behave as cars all of the time, and thus cannot be held to the same rules *all of the time*. If they tried to, they might be sitting ducks waiting to get struck down. Cars must always follow the rules and be safe and predictable, in order for cyclists to be safe. Of course it's a double standard - the same standards cannot apply. Drivers often use the argument that cyclists don't follow the rules as justification for their rage. As a cyclist I will do the safest thing even if it involves breaking the law and as long as it doesn't endanger or cause distraction to others.

A few years ago a forum member tried cycling according to the letter of the law for a month. It caused him to be honked, yelled, and cursed at.

 

[ShonTron]

We seem to be talking about different things. My point was that cyclists do not have the capacity to behave as cars all of the time, and thus cannot be held to the same rules *all of the time*. If they tried to, they might be sitting ducks waiting to get struck down. Cars must always follow the rules and be safe and predictable, in order for cyclists to be safe. Of course it's a double standard - the same standards cannot apply. Drivers often use the argument that cyclists don't follow the rules as justification for their rage. As a cyclist I will do the safest thing even if it involves breaking the law and as long as it doesn't endanger or cause distraction to others.

I think cyclists have to be predictable and put their safety and the safety of others as their top priority.

This means following most HTA laws to the letter:
- Red lights. Stop! Don't fly through them. Stay stopped until you get the green.
- Streetcar doors - just like cars, stop and stay stopped when they are open and passengers are getting on and off.
- Signal your turns. This makes you predictable and lets others know what you are doing.
- Like cars, yield to pedestrians at crosswalks.
- Have a working bell and (and between dusk and dawn), turn on your lights. A second pair of lights helmet-mounted are a great idea, as is light or reflective clothing.

Laws that should be changed, but I don't advocate breaking.

- residential one-way streets. Cycling the wrong way down a one-way street can be dangerous and certainly unpredictable. But I want to see more contraflow bike lanes. I'd be open to the idea of "cyclists excepted" tabs for the Annex/Harbord Village type mazes (with warning signs to motorists in areas where bikes are allowed to go the wrong way). In Copenhagen, bikes are allowed the wrong way on most one-way streets. The one-way mazes are designed to facilitate resident car parking and keep out through autos, and don't recognize how they don't work for bikes that well. Still, I'm glad to live at the corner of two residential two-way streets in the Bathurst/Bloor area so I don't have to worry about this.

There are some laws which should have some flexibility for bikes:

- Turning prohibtions: more and more temporal no-turn signs now have "bicycles excepted" - these are designed to keep cars out of residential areas. I think turn restrictions (at least right-turns) meant to keep through cars out (and not one-way streets) should not apply to bikes.

- Stop signs. 4-way stops are placed as a "traffic calming" measure, which is not valid. Four way stops are great for managing medium-traffic intersections, or intersections where there is high pedestrian activity and lower auto use, but not for every block merely to slow cars. Most cars go through them as rolling stops, I don't even mind that. Bikes should be the same (and enshrined), but I would then support strict (reverse-onus) liability if the bike hits someone else who has the right-of-way (say a passing pedestrian). Meanwhile, I take each stop sign as they come, at the very least slowing and looking for other traffic and pedestrians before carefully passing through, and fully stopping, no matter what, if a pedestrian or car approaches the intersection.

In the last two days, I've been waived through three times by motorists who have the right-of-way as they see me stopping or stopped at a stop sign. Either they are used to bikes blowing though without ROW (which I can not stand), or not in a rush and considerate, or appreciate me recoginizing the rules of the road.

Bikes have one huge advantage over cars: you can get off and walk it and have all rights of a pedestrian. I've gotten off my bike and walked it past a slow-loading streetcar and then re-mounted. Totally legal and safe. You can make all turns at Yonge and Dundas that way too!

 

[JoeParez]

As a motorist myself, honestly, I would love to see a consistent re-education of drivers every few years - it's terrible seeing how people just do NOT CARE for ANYTHING on the road other than themselves. And it's getting tiresome seeing drivers not signalling, not checking their blind spots, drifting, making turns into the wrong lanes (i.e making a left turn into a right turn lane), making left turns way after the lights have turned red, and the obvious driving while on their phones.

If a re-testing of a drivers skills is put in every say 5 years and the consequence is losing your license and having to PAY to get it back. I think you'd see a weeding out of terrible drivers and maybe less chaos on the roads.

I'll comment later about cyclists.. but as a quick point, I always look to them to tell me what they're going to do next.

 

[James]

As a motorist myself, honestly, I would love to see a consistent re-education of drivers every few years - it's terrible seeing how people just do NOT CARE for ANYTHING on the road other than themselves. And it's getting tiresome seeing drivers not signalling, not checking their blind spots, drifting, making turns into the wrong lanes (i.e making a left turn into a right turn lane), making left turns way after the lights have turned red, and the obvious driving while on their phones.

If a re-testing of a drivers skills is put in every say 5 years and the consequence is losing your license and having to PAY to get it back. I think you'd see a weeding out of terrible drivers and maybe less chaos on the roads.

I'll comment later about cyclists.. but as a quick point, I always look to them to tell me what they're going to do next.

I am definitely all for periodic testing of drivers. I've seen many more dangerous and inconsiderate drivers than cyclists as a generalization. Whether the drivers get into a comfort zone or they simply forget the HTA regulations or they figure "if that person is doing that then I'm doing it too", the attitude of many drivers is admittedly appalling...and I have to deal with such things every day as a commuter.

The worst infractions I see amongst cyclists is generally blowing through stop signs, weaving in & out of traffic or zooming up too quickly on the right hand side of a car turning right on a green.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I am a regular cyclist, but I will say this: because biking is dangerous in this city, only 2-5% of people regularly bike, and that 2-5% of the population are the ones who are the most confident bicyclists. Confidence doesn't mean skill, though. I think our lousy biking conditions disproportionately screen for the most aggressive and most daring cyclists, and the kind of people who follow traffic rules on their bikes are much more likely to leave their bikes at home.

The equivalent would be if only the 2-5% most confident drivers were on the road. Sure, you would have some excellent drivers, but you would also have a disproportionate number of people who are prone to do things like race their motorbikes down the centre lane markings of the DVP at 200 km/h, run red lights and have no inhibitions about driving home drunk.

Build better bike infrastructure and I guarantee you will have better bike behaviour, if only because people who are more rule-abiding will come out and bike.

 

[nfitz]

I've cycled extensively in cities in many parts of the world and I'd have to say the most unforgiving red-necked drivers are right here in Toronto.

I've walked extensively in cities in many parts of the world and I'd have to say the most unforgiving red-necked cyclists are right here in Toronto.

A few years ago a forum member tried cycling according to the letter of the law for a month. It caused him to be honked, yelled, and cursed at.

Haven't we done this entire debate before in another similar thread? Merge?

 

[GraphicMatt]

Haha, imagine how pissed drivers would get if all cyclists actually turned left at signalled intersections using the left-turn lane. Try doing *that* on a major arterial as a timid or slow cyclist.

Re: bike licensing. Not only would it add to the bureaucracy, it would also inevitably mean fewer people would bother cycling. Yes, there are your commuter warrior-type cyclists and couriers, who might actually benefit from some kind of licensing/training program, but there are also more casual cyclists who just want to dip a toe in the water and try it out. They're far less likely to bother if you throw up barriers.

Overall, the city's goal should be to drastically increase the number of cyclists for a variety of environmental, economic and social reasons.

As far as increasing safety goes, I wonder if the Toronto Police might benefit from taking a look at how cycling and traffic laws are enforced in other cities. As it stands, TPS likes to set up checkpoints a couple of times a month and write cyclists tickets for going the wrong way down quiet residential one-way streets or not having a bell. That's hardly effective at actually creating a culture of safe cycling.

 

[neubilder]

As a motorist myself, honestly, I would love to see a consistent re-education of drivers every few years - it's terrible seeing how people just do NOT CARE for ANYTHING on the road other than themselves. And it's getting tiresome seeing drivers not signalling, not checking their blind spots, drifting, making turns into the wrong lanes (i.e making a left turn into a right turn lane), making left turns way after the lights have turned red, and the obvious driving while on their phones.

If a re-testing of a drivers skills is put in every say 5 years and the consequence is losing your license and having to PAY to get it back. I think you'd see a weeding out of terrible drivers and maybe less chaos on the roads.

I'll comment later about cyclists.. but as a quick point, I always look to them to tell me what they're going to do next.

Agreed, and cab drivers are the worst offenders.

 

[neubilder]

I've walked extensively in cities in many parts of the world and I'd have to say the most unforgiving red-necked cyclists are right here in Toronto.

As a pedestrian in Copenhagen or Amsterdam, if you so much as step onto a bike lane for a split second you will be sternly scolded by at least a few cyclists whizzing by. And that's how it has to be for things to function in places where people are expected to actually think.

 

[ShonTron]

City cab drivers are not that bad compared to the worst: airport cab/limo drivers. They are the demons amongst all motorists, always in bigger hurries than cabbies since they are paid by fixed zones rather than time+distance.