Candidates and their subway plans... The Star tells you which one is more credible

[nfitz]

When you take into account that much of the network she proposes could be done for significantly less than bored tunnels (i.e. elevated track along Sheppard, Eglinton east, parts of Eglinton West, trenched along the Richview corridor, etc) I think her numbers make tonnes of sense. And if she wanted to do some real work, there's tonnes that could be done to actual tunneling to make it cheaper.

Her estimated cost for 33 km of Eglinton subway is less than what Metrolinx estimated for 10 km of tunnelled LRT and 23 km of surface LRT. Are you trying to tell me that elevated subway and trenched subway is cheaper than surface LRT? Her numbers don't add up.

LRT will add to road congestion.

She didn't say LRT adds to congestion ... she said Streetcars add to congestion ... in the present tense. Clearly this is a reference to the cities existing streetcar network. How far up her ass is her head, if she thinks that removing the existing streetcars from Toronto would decrease congestion?

 

[Fresh Start]

Ford had my vote from day one. Thomson's subway plan is the best that the public's seen... so far. Robbie hasn't released his full transit plan yet and for any pro-subway advocates out there, that ought to be piqueing your interest. An unrevealed package gives us time and the opportuntity to sell the merits of subway expansion to him. It wouldn't even take that much convincing on our part. That he's disavowed streetcar expansion and is on record stating that he'd extend Bloor-Danforth to Scarborough Centre is a great first step towards turning back this City's agenda from morass.

Furthermore he's an actual human, not a soul-less politician or cynical patsy of the elites and corporations.

Go ROB!!

Now watch the lefties go berserk attacking him with every smear they can come up with, forgetting the disgraceful record of Smitherman, and the non-record of Rossi, and the Miller 2.0 mandate of Pantalone. I wish Thomson would consider running for City Council, we need more voices like her's within our ranks.

GO ROB!

 

[Second_in_pie]

Her estimated cost for 33 km of Eglinton subway is less than what Metrolinx estimated for 10 km of tunnelled LRT and 23 km of surface LRT. Are you trying to tell me that elevated subway and trenched subway is cheaper than surface LRT? Her numbers don't add up.

Again, putting tunneling at $300 million/km and "other" at $150 million/km, it equates to 7.5 billion. And if that's a huge deception, then I guess you'll have something to say to Miller over the Eglinton LRT's $2 bil+ cost increase.

She didn't say LRT adds to congestion ... she said Streetcars add to congestion ... in the present tense. Clearly this is a reference to the cities existing streetcar network. How far up her ass is her head, if she thinks that removing the existing streetcars from Toronto would decrease congestion?

Which is total semantics. People in Toronto will very quickly associate LRT with streetcars. Our currently existing "LRT" lines are in no way separate from the legacy streetcar network. Apart from that, they run aboveground on rails and use overhead wires. It's not a deception, it's just saying what people are used to. Don't try to avoid the actual allegation by pretending for a second you think that she's talking about the 500 routes.

 

[Fresh Start]

I believe it. I've been warning about this for a while. People on this board don't seem to have a good grasp of the half of the population that lives north of Eglinton. Nor are folks on here generally concerned about the concerns of those residents. They are simply written off as suburbanite neanderthals who drive cars. These are people who saw the plate tax as a direct assault on them. Not because they like driving. But because they didn't think transit was an effective alternative all the time and so they saw the Miller plate tax as a tax on a necessity. These are people who don't bike, because biking down Sheppard with 80km/h traffic is quite scary! These are people who pay for garbage collection now, only to see their part of town usually get more trash strewn. Etc. Etc. Now those folks might just seek revenge using Ford.

I don't support Ford. But I understand where he comes from and why he's doing as well as he is in the polls. He's only politicians who actually understands and sympathizes with the concerns of suburbanites. And whether he's lying or not, he says all the right things, "I'll build more subways." "I'll end the war on the car." Etc.

I take offence to the notion that south-of-Eglinton residents can't be free-thinking citizens as well. Torontonians whether from Long Branch to Rouge Hill, Toronto Islands to Steeles have felt the massive weight of taxation over the past couple of years, the annual budget leap from 6.6 billion to 9.2 billion (the highest by far in Canada). The outgoing Mayor Miller promised voters when seeking their votes that he as Mayor would not allow budgets or taxes to increase above the rate of inflation. Why did Miller and his incumbent councilors agree to a wage increase of 1.75% and back dated for salaries in 2009 when the actual cost of inflation was only .2989%. Thus giving employees a 1.45% increase above the rate of inflation?

Since amalgamation councillors approved budgeted spending has increased 64.28% and the capital budget has increased a whopping 300% in 13 year. The clear result being that councillors spending on non-priority items and expenditures have increased taxes on average at TWICE the ANNUAL RATE of INFLATION. For the past 7 years and longer Toronto's incumbent career councilors have had no regard for prudence when it came to spending our tax dollars. Their outrageous practice of increasing spending at an average rate of 5.21% annually since 2003 over revenues which has continually been 1.9% ABOVE INFLATION RATES must come to an end in 2010. This has siphoned over $22 MILLION from Renters, Condo and Homeowners and Businesses alike for each 2% increase in tax rates since 2003.

You think we can believe these career politicians? You're right Keithz, we are angry and we want revenge. And Rob Ford speaks our language. If I have to hear one more time someone defending Council's scandalous spending habits with the retort "Oh, cutting back on this spending or that spending we only save the City .33 percent of the $9+ billion budget,'' I will scream. $12 million for a retirement party? Give me a f#@^ing break.

 

[nfitz]

Ford had my vote from day one.

Was it his bigotry, his racism, or his wife-beating that attracted you?

Thomson's subway plan is the best that the public's seen... so far.

From a current candidate ... I can't disagree. But it says little.

Robbie hasn't released his full transit plan yet and for any pro-subway advocates out there, that ought to be piqueing your interest.

Robbie ... oh, you are as shill are you? Is he going to keep his promise to cancel evening bus service?

 

[nfitz]

Again, putting tunneling at $300 million/km and "other" at $150 million/km, it equates to 7.5 billion. And if that's a huge deception, then I guess you'll have something to say to Miller over the Eglinton LRT's $2 bil+ cost increase.

Yeah, he should have known better ... but he didn't have the stupidity to make it part of his platform campaign!

Which is total semantics.

It's not semantics ... it's what she said. If she mis-spoke, she had plenty of chances to fix it for the record. She is naive, and really doesn't understand what she is talking about.

 

[Fresh Start]

Fair enough. Ford is a wife-beating bigot. Anyone who would vote for him must be a neanderthal!

Fair enough. Smitherman is a high-school dropout, well-known drug user (correction reformed drug user), and man in charge over multibillion dollar e-Health and Samsung boondoogles. And don't forgot to mention that Smitherman was involved in crafting the 8% HST. I'd say that anyone who would vote for him must be a neanderthal, but then that would be an insult to neanderthals.

 

[Fresh Start]

Was it his bigotry, his racism, or his wife-beating that attracted you?

OMG, give it up. I'll agree to disagree with you on any of that because you're only saying these things to distract everyone from the real issues; the spectacle and sensationalization of electoral campaigns they called it in Poli Sci class.

From a current candidate ... I can't disagree. But it says little.

Robbie ... oh, you are as shill are you? Is he going to keep his promise to cancel evening bus service?

Shill, lol. I've told you from day one that I have no personal connections to Rob Ford. I'm just sick of you lefties flogging a dead horse everytime that you do not get your own way. I'm sure you'd like nothing more than to coerce everybody into voting in another Miller-type even though it's demonstrative that Miller-types only listen to roughly 15% of the citizenry, while the rest of us has to take a number and sit down.

 

[Fresh Start]

Ottawa's actually an excellent example. They had a crap transit plan, so they cancelled it and started fresh. And look now, they're back on the path to building an excellent network.

Exactly. That's why I refuse to give up hope that Transit City can be postponed and the DRL and Eglinton SUBWAY to the airport can be expedited in time for the Pan Am Games. I find it hysterical that Toronto expects the bulk of visitors from overseas during the games to rely a circuitous routing of bus from the airport to Jane/Eglinton, Jane to Kennedy Stn, Kennedy to Sheppard/Markham, Markham to Conlins, wait for the UTSC branch, then head down to the Aquatics Centre. Transferring twice using the YUS + "stubway" route will also prove a hassle.

BRT along the DVP and 401 from Union station every 15 minutes would be better than that. TC simply put is just a terrible idea, and the rigid inflexibility of its planners to implement any significant time-saving modifications to the plan (grade-separation, fewer stops), only makes it that much worse.

 

[nfitz]

Fair enough. Smitherman is a high-school dropout, well-known drug user (correction reformed drug user), and man in charge over multibillion dollar e-Health and Samsung boondoogles.

I keep saying ... Smitherman isn't qualified to be mayor. Unlike Ford he may be qualified to be human. He is much more of a man than Ford will ever be.

And don't forgot to mention that Smitherman was involved in crafting the 8% HST.

Not sure I see the issue here ... and given that GST and HST s a Conservative concept, it's not like there is anyone to the left of him, other than Pantalone. It's a pretty benign tax ... and revenue neutral ... though the very small shift of taxation from business to individuals seems a bit unfair ... though again, I can't see any of his opponents being opposed to this philosophically ... accept Pantalone. My gosh ... you never struck me as pushing an NDP issue!

Exactly. That's why I refuse to give up hope that Transit City can be postponed and the DRL and Eglinton SUBWAY to the airport can be expedited in time for the Pan Am Games.

DRL and Eglinton subway before 2015? I'm not sure what your smoking, but pass it around!

 

[Fresh Start]

DRL and Eglinton subway before 2015? I'm not sure what your smoking, but pass it around!

Are you incapable of discussing the issues without resorting to name-calling and accusations, or what? Now suddenly I'm a NDPer because I have the common-sense to know that a tax hike during a recession is wrong, that'll it'll lead to higher unemployment and raise the cost to own a home even further up. That descriptor sounds completely contrarian to what NDP loyalist David Miller has been doing to Torontonians for several years now. Btw, it is Tory leader Tim Hudak who's leading the charge against the HST.

Lest we forget the RAV/Canada Line - with the same specs as a Toronto subway line and using PPP - began construction on October 2005 and was completed in August 2009. Scarcely four years. Look at a calendar, we still have five. Get the footdragging hired consultants and unions out of the process and maybe mass transit projects can be built and implemented quicker.

 

[nfitz]

Are you incapable of discussing the issues without resorting to name-calling and accusations, or what?

I don't think suggesting that your smoking something to have both a DRL subway and a subway to Pearson in place before 2015 is name-calling or accusations; I didn't really think you were serious - and now that I realize that you are serious ... well ... it's just so mind-bogglingly naive! Even if fully funded today, the design, tendering, and construction couldn't possibly be completed in time.

Now suddenly I'm a NDPer because I have the common-sense to know that a tax hike during a recession is wrong, that'll it'll lead to higher unemployment and raise the cost to own a home even further up.

They the only party that is proposing to end the HST. And tax hike? That's rich ... the majority of families will see a tax decrease. Only a few percentage of people in the highest bracket see anything more than 2-digit increase. It's just about a neutral as a tax adjustment can be ... and that's not including the large cheques that are coming for the adjustement. It's only after these stop in 2012 that there are these marginal adjustments, except for the super-rich. By most accounts we are already coming out of recession now ... do you really think we will still be in recession in 2012? At the same time, we are seeing drops in tax rates for businesses right now. Isn't that exactly what we need?

Btw, it is Tory leader Tim Hudak who's leading the charge against the HST.

Hudak leading the charge against the HST? Who are you kidding; he's made it quite clear that he'll make a lot of noise about it - because he is an opportunistic bastard, but he has absolutely no intention of cancelling it. Replacing this kind of consumption tax, with the very inefficient sales tax goes against everything that an Economist like Hudak believes in; and on this rare occasion he and Harper, and Flaherty are correct. I've heard he is thinking about dropping it from 8% to 7% though ... but

Lest we forget the RAV/Canada Line - with the same specs as a Toronto subway line

I think that has to be the biggest mistruth you've ever come up with! It's no where near the same specs! The stations are only 40 metres long, and can be extended at most to 50 metres. Compare to a Toronto subway platform that is 150 metres long. The Canada Line trains are shorter than 2 Toronto subway cars! Construction through Vancouver was almost entirely cut-and-cover - and created so much disturbance that Translink has been promising to tunnel next time - similiar to the problems the TTC encountered building the Yonge subway in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

and using PPP - began construction on October 2005 and was completed in August 2009. Scarcely four years. Look at a calendar, we still have five.

But you can't just start constructing tomorrow. Nor did the Canada Line. The government announced the go ahead in 1998! Various designs were studied for years. Tendering started in 2003. It's way to late to start talking about starting completely new and unplanned subways in Toronto to be open in less than 5 years. Or any other cities. I can't believe you'd seriously suggest such an impossibility. And pretty unlikely given that contracts have already been award for Eglinton for both the tunnel boring machines (that are the wrong size for subway) and for the LRV vehicles.

 

[Justin10000]

Who the hell would vote for a anti-gay bigot? Good lord!

On the RAV line, the line has already reached it's capacity of 100,000, and Translink plans tp add 2 more trains by August 2011. It's going to take a year to add 2 trains to a automated system. Go PPP!!

 

[Second_in_pie]

Yeah, he should have known better ... but he didn't have the stupidity to make it part of his platform campaign!

Interesting, I thought you actually argued that Miller had TC as part of his election platform all along. And even if he didn't, he still "lied" to us about the true cost of TC. And still note that her numbers could still be close. It'd basically be $1 billion for a subway all the way across Eglinton.

 

[nfitz]

Interesting, I thought you actually argued that Miller had TC as part of his election platform all along.[/QUOTE]I have; it was the pricing that wasn't part of the platform. The pricing came from TTC.

It'd basically be $1 billion for a subway all the way across Eglinton.

$1 billion for a 33 km subway? $33 million a kilometre? Am I missing something here? I'd think the vehicles alone would be costing about $15 million per kilometre or so.