Canadian Highway Fantasy Thread

[micheal_can]

Ottawa? It goes through the national capital and is a top-5 metro area in Canada in terms of population.

List of population centres in Ontario - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is the only one in the top 10 largest centres in Ontario. Number 11 is Kanata.

I almost feel the 20 or 30 and the 401 should be designated as a TCH west of Montreal. Then it goes through the majority of the large urban areas.

 

[lenaitch]

These are the highways that almost anyone would find themselves on if they are making a long journey in Canada.

Including, apparently, part of a provincial highway that currently exists only as a forest access road (50).

As Toronto found out during its foray into renaming Dundas St., re-identifying routes can be costly and disruptive, particularly for those living along them.

At least choose a signage that doesn't mimic Quebec, which in turn mimics the US Interstate System.

Due to its established highway grid system and additional political challenges, it would be exempt from renumbering its TCH section to TC-1.

This seems to assume that all the other provinces would readily fall in line. In truth, since the costs and disruptions would be borne by the provinces, I would expect all of them to balk at any large-scale changes. Quite frankly, I suspect most travellers today either already know their route, or key it into a GPS and do what it says.

Many truckers will outright prefer taking 11 across instead of 17 (even if it adds more distance) because the route is far flatter and straighter.

The difference is minimal. The Hwy 11 route is approximately 60 km longer from Winnipeg to Toronto, but you are correct; the Hwy 11 route through northeastern Ontario is easier on fuel and experiences less disruptive winter weather. It only seems much longer because it is sooooo boring.

The lack of enroute services largely reflects the low resident population. Long distance service businesses are responsive to the market. People drive farther and stop less frequently than they used to.

 

[EnviroTO]

It seems you want to mix the way the interstates, and Quebec Autoroutes are numbered, and you also want us to be attached to the numbering system of whatever the USA has brought to our border. Am I right?

No, the numbering isn't attached to the Quebec system, they were using two digit Autoroute numbers on freeways that barely cross a metro area (the numbers should be reserved for long distances between communities) and there would be no numbers left for the rest of Canada arranged from 1 on the west coast to 97 on the east coast (99 reserved for Newfoundland and Labrador connection).

Yes, US numbers continue for North-South highways with the ultimate goal being to have continuous numbering on continuous journeys. When you reach the border, you are likely not done your journey so assigning a new route number doesn't add a significant benefit (other than to fix the way the US spread out their odd numbers). US is South of Canada so east-west highways meeting our border couldn't continue without breaking the goal on numbering South to North or using a "0" to denote the most important east west connectors.

I toyed with 5 Vancouver, 15 Calgary, 25 Regina, 35 Winnipeg, 45 Thunder Bay, 55 Sault Ste Marie, 65 Toronto, 75 Montreal, 85 Quebec City, 95 Fredericton to spread the numbers out better, but in a pros and cons analysis realized the numbering could work as it was and choosing different numbers would put aesthetic considerations higher than the journey. When someone reaches the border on I-29 they are most likely going to continue straight on their journey so 29 makes sense from a continuity and ease of guidance perspective.

 

[EnviroTO]

The other numbering assignment toyed with was numbering based on importance to the network (population served) with 1 being the TCH, but while that is a fairly common practice and has far greater symbolism, it is not as important from a route guidance perspective.

 

[EnviroTO]

Including, apparently, part of a provincial highway that currently exists only as a forest access road (50).

The only reason it isn't the primary route traffic takes is because it hasn't been upgraded to provincial standards and designated a highway. It has been something many politicians and agencies have asked for but obviously if more traffic takes that route because it is more desirable, less traffic is taking the other route. Sault Ste Marie is Canada's Breezewood Pennsylvania for transportation efficiency and that is before winter closures on Highway 17 are factored in.

 

[EnviroTO]

At least choose a signage that doesn't mimic Quebec, which in turn mimics the US Interstate System.

The inspiration was actually Europe where in France and the UK blue signs denote the most important routes, green the next level down, and white the local routes and destinations. The freeway symbol used in the sign is the international symbol not seen in the US, and the red crown was removed... that seemed red white and blue.

 

[lenaitch]

The only reason it isn't the primary route traffic takes is because it hasn't been upgraded to provincial standards and designated a highway. It has been something many politicians and agencies have asked for but obviously if more traffic takes that route because it is more desirable, less traffic is taking the other route. Sault Ste Marie is Canada's Breezewood Pennsylvania for transportation efficiency and that is before winter closures on Highway 17 are factored in.

It could also be argued that the Sultan Industrial Road isn't a primary traffic route is because it is a privately-owned, winding, marginally maintained gravel road that the public has access to.
Granted, it is about 90km shorter than going through The Soo, but none of the highways it connects, 101, 129 667 and 144, are designed or maintained to Class 1 standards. This wouldn't be simply a re-numbering exercise; it would be a major re-build from Wawa to Sudbury.

Some folks have called for its upgrading. Obviously, nobody in The Soo.

I don't get your Breezewood comparison at all. Breezewood PA is an unincorporated village at the junction of two major US highways that, because of federal funding rules at the time, could not be directly connected so traffic between them routes onto a single local road. It's entire claim to fame is fast food, motels and gas stations.

 

[micheal_can]

Including, apparently, part of a provincial highway that currently exists only as a forest access road (50).

It is a provincially funded road. If it were paved, it could be a significant highway.

No, the numbering isn't attached to the Quebec system, they were using two digit Autoroute numbers on freeways that barely cross a metro area (the numbers should be reserved for long distances between communities) and there would be no numbers left for the rest of Canada arranged from 1 on the west coast to 97 on the east coast (99 reserved for Newfoundland and Labrador connection).

Yes, US numbers continue for North-South highways with the ultimate goal being to have continuous numbering on continuous journeys. When you reach the border, you are likely not done your journey so assigning a new route number doesn't add a significant benefit (other than to fix the way the US spread out their odd numbers). US is South of Canada so east-west highways meeting our border couldn't continue without breaking the goal on numbering South to North or using a "0" to denote the most important east west connectors.

I toyed with 5 Vancouver, 15 Calgary, 25 Regina, 35 Winnipeg, 45 Thunder Bay, 55 Sault Ste Marie, 65 Toronto, 75 Montreal, 85 Quebec City, 95 Fredericton to spread the numbers out better, but in a pros and cons analysis realized the numbering could work as it was and choosing different numbers would put aesthetic considerations higher than the journey. When someone reaches the border on I-29 they are most likely going to continue straight on their journey so 29 makes sense from a continuity and ease of guidance perspective.

The problem with Canada is there are not many E/W routes.

Maybe single digits for E/W routes and double digits, split up with the provinces might make more sense.

 

[ShonTron]

I don't get your Breezewood comparison at all. Breezewood PA is an unincorporated village at the junction of two major US highways that, because of federal funding rules at the time, could not be directly connected so traffic between them routes onto a single local road. Its entire claim to fame is fast food, motels and gas stations.

The best part about Breezewood is the nearby Ray’s Hill Tunnel, part of the abandoned Pennsylvania Turnpike.

The best comparison to Breezewood in Ontario would be the RIRO sections of 35/115 and 11 that prevent a proper upgrade to 400-series standard that both routes merit.

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't get your Breezewood comparison at all. Breezewood PA is an unincorporated village at the junction of two major US highways that, because of federal funding rules at the time, could not be directly connected so traffic between them routes onto a single local road. It's entire claim to fame is fast food, motels and gas stations.

The rule no longer exists and many interstates and tollways now connect, but Breezewood remains unavoidable because the economic interests of the community prevent changes that would improve the journey for many. Sault Ste Marie is the reason a better route does not exist.

 

[lenaitch]

It is a provincially funded road. If it were paved, it could be a significant highway.

The owners receive approx $300,000 in provincial funding for maintenance (that's why it is open to the public), which is different than "provincially funded. If you have ever driven it (I have), simply paving it would just make it a less dusty, winding narrow road. It used to be that the company trucks on the road didn't have to be HTA-compliant (length, width); IDK if that is still the case.

The rule no longer exists and many interstates and tollways now connect, but Breezewood remains unavoidable because the economic interests of the community prevent changes that would improve the journey for many. Sault Ste Marie is the reason a better route does not exist.

Am aware.

You give a lot of lobbying credit to SSM.

 

[micheal_can]

The owners receive approx $300,000 in provincial funding for maintenance (that's why it is open to the public), which is different than "provincially funded. If you have ever driven it (I have), simply paving it would just make it a less dusty, winding narrow road. It used to be that the company trucks on the road didn't have to be HTA-compliant (length, width); IDK if that is still the case.

I have driven it. $300k goes a long way with a grader. Any road that is on crown land, which this is, is open to the public, unless the MNRF wants it closed. You cannot have a private road unless it is close to a mine site. As far as winding road, have you ever driven highway 533? Many of our secondary highways are very winding. If it became the new route for trucks, I could see it being straightened and flattened.

 

[lenaitch]

I have driven it. $300k goes a long way with a grader. Any road that is on crown land, which this is, is open to the public, unless the MNRF wants it closed. You cannot have a private road unless it is close to a mine site. As far as winding road, have you ever driven highway 533? Many of our secondary highways are very winding. If it became the new route for trucks, I could see it being straightened and flattened.

All fair and good, but far from the proponents position that all they would have to do is pave it and it would be part of a new Hwy 50 from Sudbury to Wawa. Straighten it, flatten it, upgrade 144, 667, 129 and 101; build a bypass around Wawa then sure, it's a new route. And all the communities it would serve.

(Yes, I have, both in my truck and on m/c)

 

[micheal_can]

All fair and good, but far from the proponents position that all they would have to do is pave it and it would be part of a new Hwy 50 from Sudbury to Wawa. Straighten it, flatten it, upgrade 144, 667, 129 and 101; build a bypass around Wawa then sure, it's a new route. And all the communities it would serve.

(Yes, I have, both in my truck and on m/c)

The Sultan road would be well used if it were paved, but, only as long as 17 is not 4 lanes between Sudbury and Wawa. All you need to do is look at the slowdowns for the towns along 17 and the city route through SSM to understand why. 4 laning Sultan would be pointless, even if it is the shorter route.

From Toronto to Nipigon:
It is 1270km along 17
It is 1190 km through Sultan,
and1345 on 11.

Many drivers take the 11 route due to it being flatter once you reach New Liskard.

So, maybe if we are going to designate a highway as TCH and as the trunk route through Canada, it should be 4 lanes or more, not just the shortest route.

 

[lenaitch]

The Sultan road would be well used if it were paved, but, only as long as 17 is not 4 lanes between Sudbury and Wawa. All you need to do is look at the slowdowns for the towns along 17 and the city route through SSM to understand why. 4 laning Sultan would be pointless, even if it is the shorter route.

From Toronto to Nipigon:
It is 1270km along 17
It is 1190 km through Sultan,
and1345 on 11.

Many drivers take the 11 route due to it being flatter once you reach New Liskard.

So, maybe if we are going to designate a highway as TCH and as the trunk route through Canada, it should be 4 lanes or more, not just the shortest route.

Who said anything about 4-laning?