Canada got it right on Cuba!

[kEiThZ]

Smart guy?

How about bigoted female instead?

Just a reminder you have yet to apologize for your bigoted and personal attacks.

I would pick Castro anyday over Bush jr. That son of a Bush!

Ask some Cubans if they would make the same choice. You'd be surprised. And at least you and the American public have that choice. I don't seem to recall Castro giving too many options to the Cuban public. When was the last time Cuba had elections? Or a peaceful transfer of power after a defined term of office. Say what you like about Bush but at least he left office after 8 years, yielding to an opponent he probably despises. Could you ever see the Castro brothers doing the same thing?

Does your anti-Americanism run so deep that you are now willing to justify the actions of dictators against their own people? Tell me, how many American citizens did Bush torture? Is it anywhere close to the number of Cubans Castro has dispatched? Foreign policy and personal liberties under the Bush administration were terrible without a doubt but it's quite an exaggeration to say that Americans under Bush were worse off than Cubans under Castro. Indeed there's a wide variety of NGO's that apparently share my opinion on the relative ranking between the US and Cuba on various aspects of life ranging from political freedoms, corruption to quality of life:

Freedom House (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=410&year=2008)
The Economist - Index of Democracy (http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/25828/20081021185552/graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Democracy Index 2008.pdf)
Transparency International (http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/cpi2008/cpi_2008_table)
the UN (http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDI_2008_EN_Tables.pdf)
UK Guardian - The Observer Human Rights Index - List of HR abuses by country (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Tables/4_col_tables/0,,258328,00.html)

The worst American administration in history would never compare to a guy who destroyed the middle class, routinely murders political opponents, limits free speech, tortures his own citizens and has generally ravaged an absolutely beautiful country with an amazing people. Next time you are on vacation in Havana, try unfurling an anti-Castro banner and see how far you get. I'd be willing to bet money that if you unfurled an anti-Bush or anti-Obama banner in Washington you would fare better than a similarly offensive stunt in Cuba.

Finally, you have to keep in mind that the American democracy is not defined by Bush II. The beauty of democracy is that however unwieldy it self-corrects. The American public may have selected Bush Jr. twice but that same power to choose has also given us Obama and Clinton. So how about comparing those presidents to Castro instead?

 

[jade_lee]

Sticks and stones.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Good retort. Best defence you have for advocating that the Cuban people be allowed to suffer so that your anti-american rhetoric is justified. I love your double standard. When someone gets tortured by the CIA (and they don't use techniques anywhere as close as what countries like Cuba use) you are all over it. But when some dictator does it to his OWN PEOPLE its okay as long as he's anti-american and left wing enough for you.

Are we to conclude that you support the mistreatment of the Cuban people as long as their leaders have sufficiently anti-American views? I would love to hear your views on Chavez. Perhaps you like his union busting tactics or harsh suppression of dissent. It's all justified for you right? He called Bush 'el diablo' so that means its okay to torture his own people.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

The beauty of democracy is that however unwieldy it self-corrects

Actually, it should be said that democracy allows for the potential to self-correct instead. Democracy as a system does not guarantee a positive outcome if the people wanted otherwise - and taking it for granted is the least wise of all options.

Castro was probably right for his time - but I think the world has moved on, and it's time for change. That said, de-Communism is easier said than done - and oftentimes it's accompanied by radicalization of the right taking advantage of the chaotic transition years. At this stage, the question should be what should Cuba transition to...reversion back to the pre-revolutinary era would be just as unjust an outcome as settling for the status quo.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

AoD,

Good points. Nobody ever said democracy is perfect. However, that post was to counter jade_lee's ridiculous assertion that Cuba under Castro is some sort of utopia in contrast to the USA under Bush II. Surely you agree that such an assertion is false? For all its failings the US is remarkably protective of its own citizens and does accord them vast personal freedoms that would not be availabe to Cuban citizens under the Castro regime.

When it comes to our own policy with Cuba, I have merely suggested that we could have done more to distinguish between assisting the Cuban public and penalizing the Castro regime. Jade_lee on the other hand has put up this thread to propose that we have the 'correct' policy on Cuba but then went on to ridicule American policy and speak very little about our own. In other words, another thread to voice her anti-americanism.

 

[jade_lee]

I stated no such thing.
America under Bush jr is a stain on humanity.
This thread addresses how under Obama the US is moving towards the Canadian policy of dealing with Cuba and that it is a good thing.
re-read perhaps?

 

[cacruden]

^ And yet Bush Jr. focused more foreign aid on Africa than ANY previous US president. He might not have been my favourite President - but it does not mean that everything that he did was bad.

 

[jade_lee]

Bush apologist?
Suit yourself.
Better still go ask most American citizens, they despise his policies equally.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Cuba is complicated largely because while, yes, Castro was/is a monster in terms of human rights, there's a good argument to be made that Cubans enjoy a better quality of life than a number of other Caribbean countries.

The U.S. embargo was mostly a petty move done to appease U.S. business interests who had a stake in Cuba prior to Fidel's revolution. They lost millions of dollars when their factories were seized. It's continued due to a very vocal population of Cuban-Americans in and around Miami, who - because of Florida's pivotal role in the last bunch of American elections - have a ridiculous amount of political sway.

 

[Hydrogen]

Better still go ask most American citizens, they despise his policies equally.

Have you asked them all?

Yeah, Canada had a relationship with the Cuban government headed by Castro. That should not be automatically construed as the support of every Canadian for the Cuban dictatorship, nor should it be viewed as a triumph on the part of a succession of Canadian governments that did little to voice questions over Castro's failure to follow through on his promise to allow free elections for the Cuban people.

Bush was elected by the citizens of the United States in a contest where the people had the choice. He left office when his constitutional limit was reached. Castro never even offered this option to the Cuban people, and he was the law when it came to finally relinquishing control.

 

[kEiThZ]

Bush apologist?
Suit yourself.
Better still go ask most American citizens, they despise his policies equally.

Classic jade_lee. Everything Bush did was bad don't you know. He should never have upped aid to Africa. Indeed, he was so unpopular among the American people, that more people voted for his candidate McCain than any of our majority governments in Canada in the last 20 years. By jade_lee's math Chretien would have been a failure. When it comes to Cuba jade_lee supports torture, as long as the recipients are cubans, the perpetrator is their own government and their leader is an anti-american leftist. God forbid Canadians should hope for a bit more of a balanced policy. Nope, we keep bragging about the right to vacation in cuban resorts while Castro tortures Cubans down the street.

 

[jade_lee]

Classic jade_lee. Everything Bush did was bad don't you know. He should never have upped aid to Africa. Indeed, he was so unpopular among the American people, that more people voted for his candidate McCain than any of our majority governments in Canada in the last 20 years. By jade_lee's math Chretien would have been a failure. When it comes to Cuba jade_lee supports torture, as long as the recipients are cubans, the perpetrator is their own government and their leader is an anti-american leftist. God forbid Canadians should hope for a bit more of a balanced policy. Nope, we keep bragging about the right to vacation in cuban resorts while Castro tortures Cubans down the street.

Apples and oranges......Yes you continue to support people like Bush, the rest of us are sick of that kind of slim. I bet you support Bush speaking here in Canada too.....Bush, Harper's hero.

 

[nfitz]

At least Bush was never as anti-Canada as his replacement. And Obama's anti-gay bigotry has been shameful.

Not that I think Bush was of any value. There must be something about the US Presidency that attracts the bottom of the gene pool.

 

[jade_lee]

This thread is not about Canadians supporting Castro or dictatorships but instead it's about not punishing nations because they are "commies" but instead it's about our reaction to governments that are different from our own.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Wrong. This thread by its title is about whether Canada got it right on Cuba or not.

You cannot speak for every forum member or every Canadian and make such blanket statements that every one of us 'supports' Cuba. If that was the case, then why have this thread in the first place? There would be nothing to discuss.