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Buying in "Transitional" Neighbourhoods?

I think Felino has hijacked this thread, and I don't personally find his/her comments accurate or helpful.

GraphicMatt has it right--I rented on Seaton & Shuter, and friends rented on adjacent Ontario street ~2006-8. They were great places to live, and while a 50th-percentile family from Oshawa might not be comfortable, my wife and I felt safe and had good neighbors. Our neighbors were generally lawyers, architects, professionals. I like those kinds of people.

We saw some people acting very strangely. Strange is not dangerous, and a lot of the local "color" feels much less threatening when you see the same folks on a constant basis.

Pembroke St. and George St. are several blocks to the west (close to Jarvis, beyond Sherbourne). North of Dundas they can be especially weird and could feel threatening to almost anyone. Friends rented nearby for 3 years, and raccoons were their biggest problem, not people. They bought a house nearby. If they're not your thing, odd pockets like George are easy to 100% avoid and I don't think they should be lumped in with Berkeley, Seaton and the other pockets east of Sherbourne.

We purchased a home in a gentrifying Corktown. If Cabbagetown was just slightly more affordable, we would have likely gone that route instead but enjoy where we are now.

EDIT - responding to Observer Walt's comments--

Leslieville now isn't much cheaper than Cabbagetown. I'd recommend Riverside too (the area between Leslieville and the Don).
 
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UserNameToronto said:
I think Felino has hijacked this thread, and I don't personally find his/her comments accurate or helpful.

GraphicMatt has it right--I rented on Seaton & Shuter, and friends rented on adjacent Ontario street ~2006-8. They were great places to live, and while a 50th-percentile family from Oshawa might not be comfortable, my wife and I felt safe and had good neighbors. Our neighbors were generally lawyers, architects, professionals. I like those kinds of people.

We saw some people acting very strangely. Strange is not dangerous, and a lot of the local "color" feels much less threatening when you see the same folks on a constant basis.

Pembroke St. and George St. are several blocks to the west (close to Jarvis, beyond Sherbourne). North of Dundas they can be especially weird and could feel threatening to almost anyone. Friends rented nearby for 3 years, and raccoons were their biggest problem, not people. They bought a house nearby. If they're not your thing, odd pockets like George are easy to 100% avoid and I don't think they should be lumped in with Berkeley, Seaton and the other pockets east of Sherbourne.

We purchased a home in a gentrifying Corktown. If Cabbagetown was just slightly more affordable, we would have likely gone that route instead but enjoy where we are now.

EDIT - responding to Observer Walt's comments--

Leslieville now isn't much cheaper than Cabbagetown. I'd recommend Riverside too (the area between Leslieville and the Don).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the thoughtful reply - we went by to see the house tonight and actually really liked it. I can live with a little 'colour' as long as the area does slowly get better or at least stay the same. My concern is if it gets worse and we end up being the suckers who are stuck with a house they can't sell.
 
sunshine14 said:
Thanks for the thoughtful reply - we went by to see the house tonight and actually really liked it. I can live with a little 'colour' as long as the area does slowly get better or at least stay the same. My concern is if it gets worse and we end up being the suckers who are stuck with a house they can't sell.
Click to expand...

Like some of the others have said, the nabe you're looking at has had a "sketchiness discount" applied for 30+ years. Given Moss Park isn't going anywhere anytime soon, this discount will stick around to at least some extent.

So long as you're getting a better deal than an otherwise comparable house in Cabbagetown proper, I say go for it. I would.

EDIT - a great site: http://www.cabbagetownsouth.ca/index.php

The residents' association has done a lot of work, mostly 2000-04, on improvements in the area. Example: they reversed the flow of the one-way streets to make it more difficult for johns cruising the area to loop from one street to the next. You'll now notice that some streets have no-turn signs from Shuter, I suspect in order to give police justification to pull over (AND TASER?!?!) folks that seem to be cruising. Interesting, no?
 
I checked mls for houses on Pembroke street and they both look pretty awesome - I'd be tempted, for sure.

My anecdotal feeling having been here for 2+ years is that things are getting better. There used to be a hooker on the corner of Seaton/Shuter pretty regularly, but I haven't seen one in almost a year now. The shutdown of the Coffee Time which was apparently selling drugs on the corner of Queen/Sherbourne has made a difference. Someone also seems to have bought out the two freehold houses on Shuter street that I think were being used as drug houses and kicked everybody out too (they're now for sale as 'investment properties' for $200K).

The Maxwell Meighen Shelter at Queen/Sherbourne can be intimidating to walk by at first, but it's something you get used to. I believe it's shutting down when the new facility at Jarvis/Shuter opens up, which should make things much nicer.

Not sure what the deal is with the Moss Park towers, but since they look like they're about to fall over some days, I got to imagine there's a redevelopment plan coming eventually.

In my opinion the benefits of living here far outweigh the drawbacks - you can walk virtually anywhere, the houses are absolutely gorgeous, and it's a little cheaper than elsewhere.

I guess there's a chance it could decline further - that's the gamble you take when you buy anywhere.
 
I worked in the Queen/Sumach area for a few years (about 3 years ago now). And honestly there were some sketchy people for sure, but not really scary sketchy. I rarely felt afraid to walk by myself. That being said, I was followed to my car one evening, but I was aware, and walked back out to the busy street, and they left me alone. The area was already changing when I was there. There is a good upscale gastro-pub at the corner of Sumach and Queen (the Dominion), a cute coffee shop accross the street, great Pizza & sandwiches at Queen & Parliament (Pete's). The area is also a quick walk to the Distillery. Queen E. Across the bridge is fastly improving with lots of new shops and bistros opening.
Some of the houses are absolutely beautiful, and it wouldn't be a neighborhood I was adverse to living.

Best of luck in your search.

-Kristen
 
cdr108 said:
RUN, don't walk away from that area.
Click to expand...

It is not that bad, if you think that is bad, you might as well move the 'burbs because you will never find anything good for what you can afford.

As has been said several times in this thread, when you live in a city you can't avoid "undesirable elements". It will be in Cabbagetown, Queen West, The Annex, Leslieville, even Yorkville. Toronto is a city with millions of people, particularly in the older parts of Toronto you are going to run across different classes of people, if you don't want that, you are going to have to move to the monoculture of the suburbs or live in really expensive neighbhourhoods.

The good thing about the area of Bloor / Landsdowne / Dufferin / Dupont, is that within the neighbourhoods it is still a residential neighborhood full of working class families. There are also tons of people and projects that are working to reinvigorate the area. People that live in the area are passionate and invested in the community, despite its blemishes, and you don't find that in a lot of neighbourhoods in Toronto.

If you don't want to see the occasional poor person, prostitute or drug user - you are going to have to exclude a lot of area around downtown Toronto from your choice of where you live.

But if you want to live in a community that you can afford, surrounded by a mix of housing, cultures, retail space and within 5-10 walk to the subway, then the area will be fine.

I agree it may not be for everyone, but if you honestly want to live somewhere close to downtown, it is probably an area that can work for you.
I personally would rather live there (as I do - but in a house) then an isolated condo by the lake any day, but I understand that not everyone feels that way.

Here are some links about the area :

http://www.digin.ca/
http://wallaceemerson.ca/
http://www.southjunctiontriangle.ca/
http://bigonbloor.com/
http://bloorlansdowne.blogspot.com/
 
I live only a couple blocks away, and am quite familiar with the neighbourhood.
Lansdowne & Dupont is the shadyiest party of that hood. The apartment accross the street (1011 Lansdowne) has the reputation of being one of the worst buildings in the city. Heres a few links: http://www.blogto.com/city/2006/11/notorious_1011_lansdowne_ave/ , http://bloorlansdowne.blogspot.com/2007/10/drugs-and-prostitution-are-there.html . The coffee time is a hang out for the undesirables of the neighbourhood. However, that really is the worst of it. If they got rid of the coffee time and 1011 Lansdowne (& the building behind it) I think the neighbourhood would be a lot better. The Galleria Mall is not so great, but does have a LCBO and a Bank. There is a Loblaws and Fiesta Farms over on Christie & Dupont. Dundas West, the Junction and Roncesvalles are all walkable.
There has been a recent little rash of crime in the area, some busted windows in cars, breakins, and some kids flipped a car on Davenport in the middle of the night the other day. We have also had our car broken into, egged, and gum put into the door locks of a visiting friends car...and we live in a better end of the neighbourhood.

The developer of Electric City also owns the rental lofts accross the street (south west corner - Standard Lofts) And he is the developer of the Foundry lofts up the street, the rental townhouses accross from Foundry, and all the assorted Brownstone townhouses in the area (the ones being built on Wallace, Bloor near Dundas and the Davenport Village ones). He is trying to build the area up as Davenport village, and it has gotten a lot nicer in the past few years. Heres another link that discusses the developer and the area http://www.jeffreyteam.com/blog/toronto-condos-lofts/industrial-evolution-of-the-loft-conversion/

I might look at some alternatives before you sign the dotted line on that one. It could be one of those great decisions, and the neighbourhood will be fabulous in a few years, but it could also go the other way. I don't think that neighbourhood will really improve untill something is done with 1011 Lansdown and the Coffee Time. Take a look at Foundry lofts and the Davenport Brownstones if you want into the neighbourhood, but a block north...
 
cdr108 said:
RUN, don't walk away from that area.
Click to expand...

LOL!

Kristen said:
I live only a couple blocks away, and am quite familiar with the neighbourhood.
Lansdowne & Dupont is the shadyiest party of that hood. The apartment accross the street (1011 Lansdowne) has the reputation of being one of the worst buildings in the city. Heres a few links: http://www.blogto.com/city/2006/11/notorious_1011_lansdowne_ave/ , http://bloorlansdowne.blogspot.com/2007/10/drugs-and-prostitution-are-there.html . The coffee time is a hang out for the undesirables of the neighbourhood. However, that really is the worst of it. If they got rid of the coffee time and 1011 Lansdowne (& the building behind it) I think the neighbourhood would be a lot better. The Galleria Mall is not so great, but does have a LCBO and a Bank. There is a Loblaws and Fiesta Farms over on Christie & Dupont. Dundas West, the Junction and Roncesvalles are all walkable.
There has been a recent little rash of crime in the area, some busted windows in cars, breakins, and some kids flipped a car on Davenport in the middle of the night the other day. We have also had our car broken into, egged, and gum put into the door locks of a visiting friends car...and we live in a better end of the neighbourhood.

The developer of Electric City also owns the rental lofts accross the street (south west corner - Standard Lofts) And he is the developer of the Foundry lofts up the street, the rental townhouses accross from Foundry, and all the assorted Brownstone townhouses in the area (the ones being built on Wallace, Bloor near Dundas and the Davenport Village ones). He is trying to build the area up as Davenport village, and it has gotten a lot nicer in the past few years. Heres another link that discusses the developer and the area http://www.jeffreyteam.com/blog/toronto-condos-lofts/industrial-evolution-of-the-loft-conversion/

I might look at some alternatives before you sign the dotted line on that one. It could be one of those great decisions, and the neighbourhood will be fabulous in a few years, but it could also go the other way. I don't think that neighbourhood will really improve untill something is done with 1011 Lansdown and the Coffee Time. Take a look at Foundry lofts and the Davenport Brownstones if you want into the neighbourhood, but a block north...
Click to expand...

I read the blog couple months back, and i remember one of the comments/response suggests people who decide to live there to not have any valuables at home. I think it might be difficult to get rid of 1011 Lansdowne, since the current tenants will be displaced...without a place to go. It'd be interesting to see if the builder can turn this place around.

I wonder what it's like at night? maybe i should take a stroll in the area after dinner? hehe..
 
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sbd said:
It is not that bad, if you think that is bad, you might as well move the 'burbs because you will never find anything good for what you can afford.

As has been said several times in this thread, when you live in a city you can't avoid "undesirable elements". It will be in Cabbagetown, Queen West, The Annex, Leslieville, even Yorkville. Toronto is a city with millions of people, particularly in the older parts of Toronto you are going to run across different classes of people, if you don't want that, you are going to have to move to the monoculture of the suburbs or live in really expensive neighbhourhoods.

The good thing about the area of Bloor / Landsdowne / Dufferin / Dupont, is that within the neighbourhoods it is still a residential neighborhood full of working class families. There are also tons of people and projects that are working to reinvigorate the area. People that live in the area are passionate and invested in the community, despite its blemishes, and you don't find that in a lot of neighbourhoods in Toronto.

If you don't want to see the occasional poor person, prostitute or drug user - you are going to have to exclude a lot of area around downtown Toronto from your choice of where you live.

But if you want to live in a community that you can afford, surrounded by a mix of housing, cultures, retail space and within 5-10 walk to the subway, then the area will be fine.

I agree it may not be for everyone, but if you honestly want to live somewhere close to downtown, it is probably an area that can work for you.
I personally would rather live there (as I do - but in a house) then an isolated condo by the lake any day, but I understand that not everyone feels that way.

Here are some links about the area :

http://www.digin.ca/
http://wallaceemerson.ca/
http://www.southjunctiontriangle.ca/
http://bigonbloor.com/
http://bloorlansdowne.blogspot.com/
Click to expand...


i'm not adverse to dt living, or many of the areas you listed.
however, lansdowne/bloor/dupont is notoriously bad for the reasons cited by others.

the best thing for one to do if they are considering buying to live in that area is to stroll around there at all times of the day/night to get a true sense of the neighbourhood.

it's not the working class people that live there that makes the area bad, it's the crack whores/dealers that proliferate there that bring the violent crimes. talk to some more residents there and you will find that their impressions have turned more negative than positive.
 
Back to the original point, "transitional" neighbourhoods are transitional for a reason because of crime, noise, inferior housing stock, pollution or proximity to infrastructure or infrastructure legacies. The problem with moving to such an area when it is "in transition" is that once it has this populist designation you have high demand generated in the general population for what amounts to an inferior product. Take the Junction or Leslieville as examples. These areas, bless their hearts are simply problematic but urban buyers, especially younger couples are flocking to these areas. The good thing (for the new population at least) is that this very process acts as an agent of change. However, the value you get for your money is still suspect relative to buying in an established neighbourhood. Mind you many just don't have a choice financially.
 
cdr108 said:
i'm not adverse to dt living, or many of the areas you listed.
however, lansdowne/bloor/dupont is notoriously bad for the reasons cited by others.

the best thing for one to do if they are considering buying to live in that area is to stroll around there at all times of the day/night to get a true sense of the neighbourhood.

it's not the working class people that live there that makes the area bad, it's the crack whores/dealers that proliferate there that bring the violent crimes. talk to some more residents there and you will find that their impressions have turned more negative than positive.
Click to expand...

It is really not that different than other downtown neighbourhoods, they all have their issues.

Cabbagetown is between Regent Park and Moss Park.
Queen West, is near CAMH.
Kensignton Market is near Alexandra Park.

It is part of living in a city, it is not for everyone but vast amount of people find these neighbourhoods safe and live their lives there.

Like I have said if you find that neighborhood unlivable, good luck finding anything in Toronto that is near downtown and is less than $700-800k.

The neighbourhood is changing pretty rapidly, it is not pristine no, but if you want pristine live in unionville.
 
sbd said:
It is really not that different than other downtown neighbourhoods, they all have their issues.

Cabbagetown is between Regent Park and Moss Park.
Queen West, is near CAMH.
Kensignton Market is near Alexandra Park.

It is part of living in a city, it is not for everyone but vast amount of people find these neighbourhoods safe and live their lives there.

Like I have said if you find that neighborhood unlivable, good luck finding anything in Toronto that is near downtown and is less than $700-800k.

The neighbourhood is changing pretty rapidly, it is not pristine no, but if you want pristine live in unionville.
Click to expand...

:S that's a little high, no? there are a lot of decent prices in resale. Even in pre-construction, not all sites are in that price range (e.g., Fly Condos). Older condos on Grenville, for example, have units going in the $200k range. Do a quick search on MLS, and i'm sure you'll easily find units less than $700k.

Here's a quick listing that i found on MLS, 2 Bdrm/2 Bath under $400k, 21 CARLTON ST (800+ sqft w/ parking)
 
Your right it is a bit high for a condo but not for a house.

But the 250k condo at Electricity would cost 100k+ more else where.

21 Carlton is also near a stretch of prostitution on Church on Street by Ryerson, you probably much more of it there than you would at Landsdowne and Bloorish area.

But like I said before, even that area is not that bad, it is alright because you have easy access to a lot of things. It is part of living in a city, you will find elements of it where ever you go.
 
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