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Brampton: Queen Street RT

W. K. Lis said:
Census population numbers for Brampton:

1996: 268,251
2001: 325,428
2006: 433,806
2011: 523,911

Queen Street in Brampton may have the numbers for a BRT in 2011, but I'll bet it would be need a LRT when the 2016 census numbers come out. Even more so by 2021 and beyond.

BTW. The population of the old city of Toronto was about 736,775 in 2011.
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The population of a sprawling city has almost nothing to do with what mode is appropriate along a certain corridor. It's like calling for a subway extension to Mississauga just because the city is heavily populated. What matters much more is population density, travel patters and ridership.
 
Again, I don't understand why this needs to be an either/or choice. BRT and LRT corridors are not oil and water. They can be combined.

Build a dual LRT-BRT corridor from Downtown Brampton to Bramalea Terminal, and then BRT only east of there to VMC.

Build 3 lanes through all LRT stations, so that buses have the option to bypass the station if they choose to run an express service.

This is a similar situation to Dundas in Mississauga, where you have Kipling to Hurontario being suitable for LRT, but west of Hurontario only being suitable for BRT.

You don't need to choose, you just need to design the corridor to adequately accommodate both.
 
gweed123 said:
Again, I don't understand why this needs to be an either/or choice. BRT and LRT corridors are not oil and water. They can be combined.

Build a dual LRT-BRT corridor from Downtown Brampton to Bramalea Terminal, and then BRT only east of there to VMC.

Build 3 lanes through all LRT stations, so that buses have the option to bypass the station if they choose to run an express service.

This is a similar situation to Dundas in Mississauga, where you have Kipling to Hurontario being suitable for LRT, but west of Hurontario only being suitable for BRT.

You don't need to choose, you just need to design the corridor to adequately accommodate both.
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The demand isn't there for LRT, and certainly not worth the investment to run simply from downtown to Bramalea. Dual three lane operation is not only overkill, there isn't available land adjacent the Queen Street corridor to expand the roadway wide enough to accomodate all those lanes (assuming exclusive transit-only lane operation).

Brampton wants (needs) cross-regional travel from Mississauga Rd to VMC, York University, Promenade, RHC, Markham Centre/Unionville and Cornell. Instead of extending out a Zum light rail to Hwy 50, why not push to have the Viva bus rapid transit extended through Brampton? It's not like YRT and BT haven't shared the operations of a cross-regional route before (i.e. the 77 which originally ran from Bramalea City Ctr via Promenade all the way to Finch subway).
 
Hopkins123 said:
The demand isn't there for LRT, and certainly not worth the investment to run simply from downtown to Bramalea. Dual three lane operation is not only overkill, there isn't available land adjacent the Queen Street corridor to expand the roadway wide enough to accomodate all those lanes (assuming exclusive transit-only lane operation).

Brampton wants (needs) cross-regional travel from Mississauga Rd to VMC, York University, Promenade, RHC, Markham Centre/Unionville and Cornell. Instead of extending out a Zum light rail to Hwy 50, why not push to have the Viva bus rapid transit extended through Brampton? It's not like YRT and BT haven't shared the operations of a cross-regional route before (i.e. the 77 which originally ran from Bramalea City Ctr via Promenade all the way to Finch subway).
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I think you're using Brampton's or Peel's estimates for population grown. From this link. They're wrong. They say that in 2011, Brampton had 511,000 people. The census says that Brampton had 523,911. I'll bet that Brampton's estimate for 2016 of 577,000 will also be off. The demand will also go up as the price of gasoline goes up, they can't stay low like now in the long term.
 
Everyone hates LRT. It is disappointing to see how bureaucrats (here in this conversation) want to under build everything strictly by he books.

It's safe. It's conservative. And it's unspectacular. And it guarantees an ordinary suburb will remain utterly ordinary in a an unsatisfactory, utilitarian kind of way.

It's a near miracle of God that Toronto has a subway by this benchmark. Thank goodness for Big Daddy Gardiner.

Perfect.
 
A friend FOI'ed Metrolinx for the Presto data for Brampton Transit by route. Keeping in mind that 80% of Brampton Transit users use Presto as payment, here are yearly ridership numbers from 2015:

1 Queen + 501 Queen: 4,308,085
2 Main + 502 Main: 3,050,855
 
W. K. Lis said:
I think you're using Brampton's or Peel's estimates for population grown. From this link. They're wrong. They say that in 2011, Brampton had 511,000 people. The census says that Brampton had 523,911. I'll bet that Brampton's estimate for 2016 of 577,000 will also be off. The demand will also go up as the price of gasoline goes up, they can't stay low like now in the long term.
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I think you're missing my point. For the same amount of money as laying tracks between Hurontario and Bramalea Terminal, we could build a seamless, one-seat cross-regional BRT corridor from Mt Pleasant GO all the way to Martin Grove/Hwy 7 where it would continue eastwards as Viva busway to Cornell.

It would take trillion$ to build such a long line (70+ kms) with railed transit. Construction of the infrastructure is already well underway through York Region. Why not just finish the job through Brampton? Why complicate things with a "stubway" light rail from Downtown Brampton to BCC that forces a transfer to continue going in the same direction?
 
TransitBart said:
Everyone hates LRT. It is disappointing to see how bureaucrats (here in this conversation) want to under build everything strictly by he books.

It's safe. It's conservative. And it's unspectacular. And it guarantees an ordinary suburb will remain utterly ordinary in a an unsatisfactory, utilitarian kind of way.

It's a near miracle of God that Toronto has a subway by this benchmark. Thank goodness for Big Daddy Gardiner.

Perfect.
Click to expand...

How can my comments be misconstrued as "hating" LRT? We need to get out of the mentality that one-size fits all. That means BRT where appropriate, LRT where appropriate, subway where appropriate, commuter rail where appropriate.

I support Hurontario LRT, for instance, because of the necessity of continuity of service throughout Mississauga and Brampton and the demand south of Britannia exceeds BRT capacity. The Queen/Hwy 7 corridor however has vast stretches of nothingness where demand is extremely low (think: McVean) where laying rails is a waste of limited funds. I think Brampton's push for LRT where it is not needed and probably won't be needed for several decades to come is more about city boosterism and nothing else.

Grade-separation of both the BRT and the Hurontario LRT through Downtown Brampton would be a far better investment.
 
Right, but Brampton is rapidly growing and intensifying along Queen, so an LRT is an investment in the future. Isn't that the Scarborough subway argument?
 
Public Information Centre scheduled for May 18th. Here's the staff report on with more details! (and a nice map)

The Queen Street Transit Master Plan study has progressed to the point where formal consultation is required. Hosting the first Public Information Centre (PIC) on May 18, 2017 in the Atrium at City Hall will allow stakeholders to view potential alternatives and options, and an opportunity to provide comments and ideas regarding transit alternatives, active transportation, land use, traffic and other related issues.
 
This is my interpretation of the Queen BRT connecting Georgetown, Mount Pleasant, and Brampton GO Stations, Bramalea City Centre, and future Highway 427 Transitway Station. Buses can also be routed on to the VIVA Transitway west to VMC during rush hour.
I aped the design of the Metrolinx Hurontario and Finch plans to make it look as official as possible lol.
1F24KIg.png
 
It looked so official, I thought it was official. Good job.

That said, I'm still reeling that Hurontario LRT doesn't even make it to Brampton GO.
 
mdrejhon said:
It looked so official, I thought it was official. Good job.

That said, I'm still reeling that Hurontario LRT doesn't even make it to Brampton GO.
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Just as a prelude to others who might comment on this, one amendment to the issue of LRT "making it" to Brampton GO could be that there is no short term or medium term potential for the HuLRT to make it to Brampton GO. Brampton Council has approved an EA to study two alternative routes to get to Brampton GO, Kennedy and McLaughlin. The EA will be completed by 2020, so the next term of Council will make the decision. Staff told Brampton Council that the Province/Feds typically don't fund projects without EAs completed, and in the case of Kennedy and McLaughlin, there is a decent cost difference because of the grade separation required for the McLaughlin option.

Also, in the RFP, one of the options the consultants can look into is single direction travel on McLaughlin or Kennedy (IE northbound on McLaughlin and then southbound on Kennedy). The RFP should have closed by now so we should hear soon which firm(s) is leading the EA.
 
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