D
dan e 1980
Guest
one things for sure, gun violence will be a dominating topic for the next mayoral race. i don't see miller getting re-elected.
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S
Sir Novelty Fashion
Guest
^ Thugs did not wait for the election of a left-leaning mayor with no control over the law, and then go on a thug-a-palooza.
Whatever's going on here has been a long time brewing. And a true solution will take even longer.
This violence is our answer to the race riots in Sydney and France. Didn't come out of nowhere.
Whatever's going on here has been a long time brewing. And a true solution will take even longer.
This violence is our answer to the race riots in Sydney and France. Didn't come out of nowhere.
B
Brighter Hell
Guest
the snake was an analogy for the projects. cutting its head off is impossible....unless you want to kill every single resident.Oh I'm not saying it doesn't matter. I'm just saying the right people will be killed for the right reasons. People who should be killed would be. I have no problem with the police killing 2000, 3000 known, habitual gang members and their protectors if it means that one fewer innocent person will be shot. Only unlike these scum, the state should do it in secret, creating a fear amongst them on a level far surpassing the type gangsters wish to create by doing these shootings in public. So yes, that's exactly what I am saying. The snake may indeed bite back if you poke it with a stick. But next time you don't poke it with a stick, you lop its head off with a machete before that snake kills your pet kitty. And when a new snake arises, you kill it too. And you keep killing them until there aren't any more snakes left to go around. And then you build a few basketball courts.
look, let's not lose our heads here. hunting down all the gang members in toronto wouldn't reduce crime, it would cause an all out war. instead, how about finding out what makes kids join gangs in the first place and addressing those issues? those are the kinds of strategies that have worked before - there was a recent article about pittsburgh on SSC i think. basically the basketball court-type programs that you like to make fun of were implemented and crime dropped. later on funding to those programs was cut and crime rose as a result.
T
thx1038
Guest
what makes kids join gangs in the first place and addressing those issues?
How about glamorizing the thug - gangsta life in music. Its cool to be unsucessful and violent. Its cool to sell coke, its cool to be a pimp, its cool to be a HO. It's cool to have show down with innocent by standers.
I think Chris Rock said it the best. You don't need no gun control. You know what you need? Bullet control. I think all bullets should cost $5000. You know why? If a bullet cost $5000 there'd be no more innocent bystanders
"You know what, I would ****ing put a cap in your ass... if I could *afford* it! I'm gonna save up some money, maybe get a second job or something, then you a mother****in' dead man!"
S
shawnmicallef
Guest
I wonder how much of this could be connected back to nearly 10 years of social program cuts, and school cuts (extracirricular activities, etc.) during the Harris years. Many of the people committing these gun crimes were young kids in the middle to late 1990s. I wonder if these are some awful chickens coming home to roost, many years later.
Society broke down somewhere, and the timeline fits.
Society broke down somewhere, and the timeline fits.
M
mpolo2
Guest
I think the tie to the Harris gov't is too cute to actually work. Lets be honest. The shooters overwhelmingly come from a few small demographics of our city, but the social spending cuts affected everyone. If it were simply the lack of afterschool programs causing this violence, why aren't we seeing more gun violence from the poor tibetan kids around queen and Jameson, or the poor south Asian, or Chinese or Latin American groups all over the city that faced the same socio-economic challenges and program cuts? There has to be a lot more going on than just one factor at work here.
T
thx1038
Guest
FROM PULSE24.com
Caught In The Crossfire
Toronto has lost its innocence.
Those were the words of a veteran police officer in describing Monday’s Boxing Day shooting spree that left a 15-year-old girl dead and six others injured.
Gunfire ripped across one of the downtown core’s busiest areas at about 5:20pm, as shoppers were strolling near the Eaton Centre loaded down with bags full of bargains.
The shots struck seven people, four men and three women, on Yonge St. between Gould and Elm. The teenage girl, who was hit in the face as her horrified parents looked on, died of her injuries.
All were taken to hospital, and one of the male victims was still fighting for his life Tuesday, listed in critical condition.
"I think it's a day that Toronto has finally lost its innocence and I think we're going to feel this day for a long time to come," said Det. Sgt. Savas Kyriacou of Toronto Police.
Officers didn’t take long in rounding up suspects – two males were arrested in a car near Castle Frank subway station, one 20 years old, the other a young offender.
Charges have not yet been laid, as cops are still investigating their possible connection to the shooting. Kyriacou said a handgun was seized from one of the arrested individuals. There are reports investigators are still seeking at least four other suspects.
One witness, 23-year-old John O’Brien, apparently saw two men arguing before the hostile act occurred.
"They were both pretty short and acted like they thought they were gangsters," he told a local paper. "One guy pulls out a gun, and I could hear shots go off."
Another witness, in an electronics store at the time, said shoppers hit the deck upon hearing the sound of gunfire.
"People were screaming," said the man, who wished to be identified as Vikram. "Everywhere in the shop, they were down on the floor."
The shooting marks the city’s 52nd gun-related murder of the year – a record.
Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair was visibly infuriated by the day’s events.
"I'm tremendously angry," he said at the crime scene.
"The individuals who would be involved in such violence clearly don't care about themselves, they don't care about their fellow citizens, they don't care about the safety of the people of the city.
"There is no rational explanation for such behaviour. It is so outrageous, so callous, totally disregarding of the lives and safety of other people in this city."
The city’s top cop said investigators would be reviewing surveillance tapes from area cameras in an attempt to figure out exactly what happened.
Mayor David Miller was also upset, calling the shooting "a brazen act of senseless violence."
Monday’s bloody deed marks the third shooting to take place in that busy area of the downtown core this year – in late July a man was fatally shot at Yonge - Dundas Square one night; before that another spray of bullets left three people, including two bystanders, wounded at Yonge and Gould in April.
The surging gun violence in the city has become an issue with all levels of government – Liberal Leader Paul Martin promised a ban on handguns if elected in January.
His rivals, however, call that a meaningless measure.
"I've said before: Mr. Martin's proposed ban on handguns is really no different than the current law," Conservative Leader Stephen Harper said from Calgary after learning of the shootings.
"We've basically banned handguns in this country. The problem is this is the first government in our history that seems unable to enforce our gun laws, and I think obviously this is just the consequence of 12 years of lax criminal justice law enforcement."
Cops are hoping the large number of potential witnesses at the scene will help them to crack the case. They've asked anyone with information to call the Toronto Police Homicide Squad at 416-808-7400 or Crime Stoppers at 416-222-TIPS (8477).
To see unedited video of Kyriacou, click here.
December 27, 2005
Caught In The Crossfire
Toronto has lost its innocence.
Those were the words of a veteran police officer in describing Monday’s Boxing Day shooting spree that left a 15-year-old girl dead and six others injured.
Gunfire ripped across one of the downtown core’s busiest areas at about 5:20pm, as shoppers were strolling near the Eaton Centre loaded down with bags full of bargains.
The shots struck seven people, four men and three women, on Yonge St. between Gould and Elm. The teenage girl, who was hit in the face as her horrified parents looked on, died of her injuries.
All were taken to hospital, and one of the male victims was still fighting for his life Tuesday, listed in critical condition.
"I think it's a day that Toronto has finally lost its innocence and I think we're going to feel this day for a long time to come," said Det. Sgt. Savas Kyriacou of Toronto Police.
Officers didn’t take long in rounding up suspects – two males were arrested in a car near Castle Frank subway station, one 20 years old, the other a young offender.
Charges have not yet been laid, as cops are still investigating their possible connection to the shooting. Kyriacou said a handgun was seized from one of the arrested individuals. There are reports investigators are still seeking at least four other suspects.
One witness, 23-year-old John O’Brien, apparently saw two men arguing before the hostile act occurred.
"They were both pretty short and acted like they thought they were gangsters," he told a local paper. "One guy pulls out a gun, and I could hear shots go off."
Another witness, in an electronics store at the time, said shoppers hit the deck upon hearing the sound of gunfire.
"People were screaming," said the man, who wished to be identified as Vikram. "Everywhere in the shop, they were down on the floor."
The shooting marks the city’s 52nd gun-related murder of the year – a record.
Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair was visibly infuriated by the day’s events.
"I'm tremendously angry," he said at the crime scene.
"The individuals who would be involved in such violence clearly don't care about themselves, they don't care about their fellow citizens, they don't care about the safety of the people of the city.
"There is no rational explanation for such behaviour. It is so outrageous, so callous, totally disregarding of the lives and safety of other people in this city."
The city’s top cop said investigators would be reviewing surveillance tapes from area cameras in an attempt to figure out exactly what happened.
Mayor David Miller was also upset, calling the shooting "a brazen act of senseless violence."
Monday’s bloody deed marks the third shooting to take place in that busy area of the downtown core this year – in late July a man was fatally shot at Yonge - Dundas Square one night; before that another spray of bullets left three people, including two bystanders, wounded at Yonge and Gould in April.
The surging gun violence in the city has become an issue with all levels of government – Liberal Leader Paul Martin promised a ban on handguns if elected in January.
His rivals, however, call that a meaningless measure.
"I've said before: Mr. Martin's proposed ban on handguns is really no different than the current law," Conservative Leader Stephen Harper said from Calgary after learning of the shootings.
"We've basically banned handguns in this country. The problem is this is the first government in our history that seems unable to enforce our gun laws, and I think obviously this is just the consequence of 12 years of lax criminal justice law enforcement."
Cops are hoping the large number of potential witnesses at the scene will help them to crack the case. They've asked anyone with information to call the Toronto Police Homicide Squad at 416-808-7400 or Crime Stoppers at 416-222-TIPS (8477).
To see unedited video of Kyriacou, click here.
December 27, 2005
S
Sir Novelty Fashion
Guest
Yeah... I'm even a little reluctant to blame in on Harris (and blaming stuff on Harris is one of my favourite pasttimes). Though social slash'n'burn couldn't have helped. How did his policies affect the inner suburbs?
S
shawnmicallef
Guest
Ya, it's probably a weak link, the more I think about it, and with the other variables. But, i'll keep it in the back of my head and see what happens.
The Tibeten kids at Jameson and King indeed. I want to say the urban enviromentment keeps them occupied, and the suburban/boring Jane-Finch one does not -- but there are too many exceptions.
If any area has a chance at figuring out how to deal with this sort of thing, Toronto probably has a better chance than most (i hope/think).
The Tibeten kids at Jameson and King indeed. I want to say the urban enviromentment keeps them occupied, and the suburban/boring Jane-Finch one does not -- but there are too many exceptions.
If any area has a chance at figuring out how to deal with this sort of thing, Toronto probably has a better chance than most (i hope/think).
B
billy corgan19982
Guest
This may not be PC but Toronto’s black community really needs to stop playing the blame game and get their own act in order. There are many poor Asian and Caucasian communities around the city who suffer from the same cuts to social programs but you don’t see their kids running around shooting each other every weekend. I don’t know if it’s the hip hop culture, the predominance of single parent households or the many other problems that plague the black community but something needs to change. The community also needs new leadership. All they do is scream racism and promote segregation by demanding black only schools and community centres.
A
allabootmatt
Guest
No, it's not PC, but you do have a point. I don't deny for one second that blacks have been, and sadly, continue to be, affected by significant amounts of discrimination. But there's lots of other groups who at one time or another have been in similar circumstances, if not as egregious. Jews, all manner of Asians, etc. etc. And all of those groups, for a time, no doubt blamed racism, rightly or wrongly, for poverty or other poor circumstances. But there came a point when they got sick of it, and decided to collectively say '**** it, the world's not fair.'
Then they worked twice as hard to succeed and stopped making excuses, because they knew that to overcome discrimination they would have to be better and stronger than the people who were discriminating against them. And, with a few hiccups, it worked. Today, what are the stereotypes of Jews and Asians? What few remain are almost all grudgingly positive, particularly having to do with hard work. Like it or not, that's what it takes to make it in a society.
I think this is a process that a lot of minority groups have to go through. It just doesn't seem to have happened to the black community in Canada yet, and hopefully it will soon.
Then they worked twice as hard to succeed and stopped making excuses, because they knew that to overcome discrimination they would have to be better and stronger than the people who were discriminating against them. And, with a few hiccups, it worked. Today, what are the stereotypes of Jews and Asians? What few remain are almost all grudgingly positive, particularly having to do with hard work. Like it or not, that's what it takes to make it in a society.
I think this is a process that a lot of minority groups have to go through. It just doesn't seem to have happened to the black community in Canada yet, and hopefully it will soon.
H
hamilton905
Guest
anyone know what the percentages are!?!?!? How many of the victims from gun violence were black and how many of them were the perpurtrator.
B
blixa442
Guest
Jack Layton:
"“These crimes remind us that we must get illegal handguns off our streets in Toronto and across Canada,†he said in a news release.
“To do that we need tougher border controls, tougher sentencing for weapons offences, and tougher anti-gang policing, prosecutions and sentencing.
“We also need to get tougher — much tougher — on poverty, unemployment and social exclusion.â€
Has anyone told Layton that the perpetrators were shooting from a... BMW? Talk about exclusion.
"“These crimes remind us that we must get illegal handguns off our streets in Toronto and across Canada,†he said in a news release.
“To do that we need tougher border controls, tougher sentencing for weapons offences, and tougher anti-gang policing, prosecutions and sentencing.
“We also need to get tougher — much tougher — on poverty, unemployment and social exclusion.â€
Has anyone told Layton that the perpetrators were shooting from a... BMW? Talk about exclusion.
Y
yyzer
Guest
Lots of passionate comments here, one thing is sure, something has to give, as this sort of stuff cannot be allowed to continue. I think the first step is a 'get tough' approach to sentencing, anyone who kills another with a gun should be looking at 20 years in the penitentiary minimum, with no chance for parole. And that should apply for 'minors' as well. These guys have no respect for anything, but they may fear spending the rest of their days in jail, and that might have an impact.
Our elected officials are horrified, naturally, but nobody has suggested anything concrete yet, naturally. Nobody has suggested upgrading border searches to help find the mostly American firearms coming in, nobody has suggested increasing police funding to supply a more visible presence in target areas, nobody has suggested stiffer sentencing, etc., etc.
Adding more basketball courts is just laughable.
Agree with what several others have said, we are being irresponsible if we ignore the fact that most of this violence is coming from black youths in our community. If that is politically incorrect, then f**k political correctness. We have to face the problem, head on. To deny the fact that these gangsta groups are mostly black is just hypocritical, and to claim racism if anyone rightly points this out is a cop-out by black community leaders.
The internet news sites are buzzing with this story, just googling 'toronto' brings up more than 200 news items about this, from around the world, from the BBC to the Dubai Times. Here is the latest AP dispatch, which I copied from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
Tuesday, December 27, 2005 · Last updated 3:01 p.m. PT
Toronto has record surge of gun violence
By ROB GILLIES
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER
TORONTO -- A city that prides itself as one of the safest in North America is bewildered by a surge in violence that has produced a record number of shooting deaths this year, the latest a 15-year-old girl on a street filled with holiday shoppers.
Canada's prime minister and Toronto's mayor blame weapons smuggled in illegally from the United States, but others point to a growing gang problem.
Whatever the cause, Canadians recoiled Tuesday after a gunbattle the previous day in Toronto left the teenage bystander lying dead and six other people wounded in a street near a popular shopping mall.
It was the 52nd death inflicted by a firearm this year in Canada's biggest city, which is nearly twice as many as last year and raised the overall homicide toll to 78 - not far below the record 88 homicides of 1991.
"I think it's a day that Toronto has finally lost its innocence," Detective Sgt. Savas Kyriacou said. "It was a tragic loss and tragic day."
Prime Minister Paul Martin said he was horrified.
"What we saw yesterday is a stark reminder of the challenge that governments, police forces and communities face to ensure that Canadian cities do not descend into the kind of rampant gun violence we have seen elsewhere," Martin said.
By elsewhere, he meant the United States. Martin, other politicians and police contend illegal guns flowing across the border are behind the spike in firearm violence.
Martin vowed earlier this month to ban handguns if his Liberal Party wins re-election in the Jan. 15 parliamentary elections. But ownership of such weapons is already severely restricted, and critics accused him of playing politics with the violence spree.
Even with the jump in killings, this city of 3 million people is relative safe. New York, which has a little over double Toronto's population, has recorded 515 homicides this year.
But many Canadians have long taken comfort in the peacefulness of their communities and are nervous about anything that might indicate they are moving closer to their American counterparts.
"What happened yesterday was appalling. You just don't expect it in a Canadian city," Toronto Mayor David Miller told The Associated Press.
Miller said that while almost every other type of crime is down in Toronto, the supply of guns has increased and half of them come from the United States.
"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he complained.
John Thompson, a security analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, disagreed.
He said that Canada has a gang problem - not a gun problem - and that the country should stop pointing the finger at the United States.
"It's a cop out. It's an easy way of looking at one symptom rather than addressing a whole disease," Thompson said.
Martin and Miller conceded that the smuggled guns aren't the only factor in the increase of violence. The mayor said poverty is an important element.
"There are neighborhoods in Toronto where young people face barriers of poverty, discrimination, and don't have real hope and opportunity," Miller said. "The kind of programs that we once took for granted in Canada, that would reach out to young people, have systematically disappeared over the past decade and I think that gun violence is a symptom of a much bigger problem."
Police said Monday's gunfire erupted during an argument between two groups of youths. As many as 10 to 15 people were involved in the shooting amid crowds of shoppers lining part of Yonge Street in the heart of Toronto's downtown.
The bloodshed was the latest in a string of shootings that have rattled Toronto. In November, an 18-year-old was fatally shot on the steps of a church, while attending the funeral of a friend whose shooting death he may have witnessed a week earlier. Over the summer, a 4-year-old boy hit in the thigh, shin and hip by stray bullets.
"I've seen this city change and I'm not pleased with it. We're doing everything we possibly can but it seems to be not enough," police Staff Sgt. Stan Belza said. "It seems to be so brazen, so little regard for anyone else's safety. I don't understand the boldness of it all."
The jump in killings comes after Canada saw a steady decline in gun-related homicides. The country had a total of 172 homicides in 2004, down from 271 in 1990.
"This is something that Canada hasn't really experienced over the years, but we're certainly seeing an increase," said Jack Ewatski, the police chief in Winnipeg who is president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.
Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control and a criminal justice professor at Ryerson University in Toronto, said a broad-based approach is needed to deal with violence.
She advocates a visible presence of officers in communities where guns are a problem, a strong show of partnership between police, religious and community leaders, and a restoration of social and recreational programs lost due to government spending cuts a decade ago.
"Gun violence is like cancer," Cukier said. "There is no one thing"
Our elected officials are horrified, naturally, but nobody has suggested anything concrete yet, naturally. Nobody has suggested upgrading border searches to help find the mostly American firearms coming in, nobody has suggested increasing police funding to supply a more visible presence in target areas, nobody has suggested stiffer sentencing, etc., etc.
Adding more basketball courts is just laughable.
Agree with what several others have said, we are being irresponsible if we ignore the fact that most of this violence is coming from black youths in our community. If that is politically incorrect, then f**k political correctness. We have to face the problem, head on. To deny the fact that these gangsta groups are mostly black is just hypocritical, and to claim racism if anyone rightly points this out is a cop-out by black community leaders.
The internet news sites are buzzing with this story, just googling 'toronto' brings up more than 200 news items about this, from around the world, from the BBC to the Dubai Times. Here is the latest AP dispatch, which I copied from the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
Tuesday, December 27, 2005 · Last updated 3:01 p.m. PT
Toronto has record surge of gun violence
By ROB GILLIES
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER
TORONTO -- A city that prides itself as one of the safest in North America is bewildered by a surge in violence that has produced a record number of shooting deaths this year, the latest a 15-year-old girl on a street filled with holiday shoppers.
Canada's prime minister and Toronto's mayor blame weapons smuggled in illegally from the United States, but others point to a growing gang problem.
Whatever the cause, Canadians recoiled Tuesday after a gunbattle the previous day in Toronto left the teenage bystander lying dead and six other people wounded in a street near a popular shopping mall.
It was the 52nd death inflicted by a firearm this year in Canada's biggest city, which is nearly twice as many as last year and raised the overall homicide toll to 78 - not far below the record 88 homicides of 1991.
"I think it's a day that Toronto has finally lost its innocence," Detective Sgt. Savas Kyriacou said. "It was a tragic loss and tragic day."
Prime Minister Paul Martin said he was horrified.
"What we saw yesterday is a stark reminder of the challenge that governments, police forces and communities face to ensure that Canadian cities do not descend into the kind of rampant gun violence we have seen elsewhere," Martin said.
By elsewhere, he meant the United States. Martin, other politicians and police contend illegal guns flowing across the border are behind the spike in firearm violence.
Martin vowed earlier this month to ban handguns if his Liberal Party wins re-election in the Jan. 15 parliamentary elections. But ownership of such weapons is already severely restricted, and critics accused him of playing politics with the violence spree.
Even with the jump in killings, this city of 3 million people is relative safe. New York, which has a little over double Toronto's population, has recorded 515 homicides this year.
But many Canadians have long taken comfort in the peacefulness of their communities and are nervous about anything that might indicate they are moving closer to their American counterparts.
"What happened yesterday was appalling. You just don't expect it in a Canadian city," Toronto Mayor David Miller told The Associated Press.
Miller said that while almost every other type of crime is down in Toronto, the supply of guns has increased and half of them come from the United States.
"The U.S. is exporting its problem of violence to the streets of Toronto," he complained.
John Thompson, a security analyst with the Toronto-based Mackenzie Institute, disagreed.
He said that Canada has a gang problem - not a gun problem - and that the country should stop pointing the finger at the United States.
"It's a cop out. It's an easy way of looking at one symptom rather than addressing a whole disease," Thompson said.
Martin and Miller conceded that the smuggled guns aren't the only factor in the increase of violence. The mayor said poverty is an important element.
"There are neighborhoods in Toronto where young people face barriers of poverty, discrimination, and don't have real hope and opportunity," Miller said. "The kind of programs that we once took for granted in Canada, that would reach out to young people, have systematically disappeared over the past decade and I think that gun violence is a symptom of a much bigger problem."
Police said Monday's gunfire erupted during an argument between two groups of youths. As many as 10 to 15 people were involved in the shooting amid crowds of shoppers lining part of Yonge Street in the heart of Toronto's downtown.
The bloodshed was the latest in a string of shootings that have rattled Toronto. In November, an 18-year-old was fatally shot on the steps of a church, while attending the funeral of a friend whose shooting death he may have witnessed a week earlier. Over the summer, a 4-year-old boy hit in the thigh, shin and hip by stray bullets.
"I've seen this city change and I'm not pleased with it. We're doing everything we possibly can but it seems to be not enough," police Staff Sgt. Stan Belza said. "It seems to be so brazen, so little regard for anyone else's safety. I don't understand the boldness of it all."
The jump in killings comes after Canada saw a steady decline in gun-related homicides. The country had a total of 172 homicides in 2004, down from 271 in 1990.
"This is something that Canada hasn't really experienced over the years, but we're certainly seeing an increase," said Jack Ewatski, the police chief in Winnipeg who is president of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police.
Wendy Cukier, president of the Coalition for Gun Control and a criminal justice professor at Ryerson University in Toronto, said a broad-based approach is needed to deal with violence.
She advocates a visible presence of officers in communities where guns are a problem, a strong show of partnership between police, religious and community leaders, and a restoration of social and recreational programs lost due to government spending cuts a decade ago.
"Gun violence is like cancer," Cukier said. "There is no one thing"
D
Danny225
Guest
I think what has been happening is so horrific.. it so disgusting!
If it was up to me, the Young Offender's Act would be history, and ANYONE found with a weapon walking the streets should be put in jail for a minimum of 5 yrs.
For murder, minimum 20 yrs... you know people who commit these crimes practicaly laugh at our system... a little spank on the arm doesn't stop them from committing such attrocities!!!!!
If it was up to me, the Young Offender's Act would be history, and ANYONE found with a weapon walking the streets should be put in jail for a minimum of 5 yrs.
For murder, minimum 20 yrs... you know people who commit these crimes practicaly laugh at our system... a little spank on the arm doesn't stop them from committing such attrocities!!!!!