Blue Jays

[Observer Walt]

That's a good start. He made a number of bad moves in terms of player personnel. But the team will need to do more than that, starting with the appointment of a new top executive officer. Beeston is there temporarily; he has made it clear (unfortunately, IMO) that he does not want the job on an ongoing basis.

 

[GenerationW]

They couldn't have waited two days and let him finish out the season? It's not like they jumped the queue and got a replacement from another team.

What a classless move.

 

[jn_12]

What's with your hate on for the Jays? First Halladay, now this? Next you're going to say Hill had a mediocre season at best.

There's nothing classless about it. Good and Bad organizations make changes at any time. The New Jersey Devils are known as a great organization, but no one called the firings of Ftorek or Julien in the final weeks of the 2000 and 2006 seasons "classless moves". And those were teams heading for the playoffs (and hell, Ftorek was fired from the eventual Stanley Cup winning team!). Maybe to those sentimental people who care about feelings and letting guys feel good about finishing what they started it might be classless, but this is professional baseball and the second that you determine someone isn't fit for the job you have to axe him. I don't care if it's his birthday. It's a business, plain and simple. In all honesty, what if they fired him last week? last month? would it have made a difference? Nope, not in the slightest. You make the moves when you feel they have to be made. Frankly, you're the only person I've heard call this a classless move.

And do you want to know what classless is? Classless is telling the media that in your opinion your recent star signing is faking injuries. How about going on a radio station and dissing another team's player? How about openly whoring yourself out to any American media while letting your Assistant handle the locals? How about lying to your fans repeatedly and using doublespeak like "It's not a lie if we know the truth." That is classless.

 

[GenerationW]

What's with your hate on for the Jays? First Halladay, now this? Next you're going to say Hill had a mediocre season at best.

The truth hurts. If baseball is a team game, then Halladay is not great because not only has he not led his team anywhere, he hasn't led them close to anywhere. OTOH, if baseball is really an individual game masquerading as a team game, then fine, he's great because his stats rate high according to Geeks-R-Us.

There's nothing classless about it. Good and Bad organizations make changes at any time. The New Jersey Devils are known as a great organization, but no one called the firings of Ftorek or Julien in the final weeks of the 2000 and 2006 seasons "classless moves". And those were teams heading for the playoffs (and hell, Ftorek was fired from the eventual Stanley Cup winning team!).

There was a clear point to firing them -- the Devils weren't confident in those coaches going into the playoffs.

Maybe to those sentimental people who care about feelings and letting guys feel good about finishing what they started it might be classless, but this is professional baseball and the second that you determine someone isn't fit for the job you have to axe him. I don't care if it's his birthday. It's a business, plain and simple. In all honesty, what if they fired him last week? last month? would it have made a difference? Nope, not in the slightest. You make the moves when you feel they have to be made. Frankly, you're the only person I've heard call this a classless move.

I can't help it I have class. Bob McCown may have made a fool of himself speculating why JP was let go at such an odd date, but I don't want to get on that bandwagon.

Again, unless they were jumping the gun to hire his replacement from outside the organization before anyone else could, there was zero point to this.

And do you want to know what classless is? Classless is telling the media that in your opinion your recent star signing is faking injuries. How about going on a radio station and dissing another team's player? How about openly whoring yourself out to any American media while letting your Assistant handle the locals? How about lying to your fans repeatedly and using doublespeak like "It's not a lie if we know the truth." That is classless.

That's true, but they didn't figure out all that until the day of game #161?

Two classless people/acts don't equal class, and to make it even more comical, the classless idiot who hired JP was on the radio this week trying (unsuccessfully) to distance himself from him.

 

[jn_12]

I'm sure you're listening to Mccown's show tonight. Apparently the rumour is that JP leaked the info that the players were unhappy with Cito to the American media. That would be grounds for dismissal, no?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't know how Rogers can financially justify the Jays when they get less than 11,000 people. The Blue Jays is spending over US$72 million on salaries in 2009 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=tor

In 2008 the total attendance at the Rogers Centre for Blue Jays games was 2.4 million people http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/toroatte.shtml

That means each ticket sold must cover US$30 in salary costs. Yes, there are other sources of revenue, such as television and radio rights, licensed clothing sales, but without good attendance, I'd say the team must be in financial trouble soon.

 

[jn_12]

The Jays don't get less than 11,000 people per game. They were around 11,000 over the last few weeks of the season, but that was a record low. Their average was 23,162 this year. Take away the last month where the team was at its lowest point in recent memory, and that number is probably more like 26k. Still not great, but not bad. It's important to remember that this year the team counted attendance as only paid seats. In the past the jays counted all free and heavily discounted in their attendance figures which really skewed things. Most teams do this, so it's hard to determine how the Jays now compare to other teams, but I'd say they're right around the league average.

I don't think the team is in financial trouble at all. They probably don't make a profit from gate receipts, but they make up for it in other areas such as providing free programming for Sportsnet and the FAN 590. I don't think you can look at the Jays as a sole entity. There's a bigger picture here which is unique since Rogers is one of the few synergies left.

Besides , there's talk that next year's budget might be anywhere from $60-120 million. I think they're going to give Anthopoulos a good budget to work with, probably more than what they had this year, and if they can sign some free agents and get people excited about the team's youth, they could potentially build some momentum in the off-season.

 

[GenerationW]

I'm sure you're listening to Mccown's show tonight. Apparently the rumour is that JP leaked the info that the players were unhappy with Cito to the American media. That would be grounds for dismissal, no?

Beeston said this rumour was completely false.

 

[syn]

The truth hurts. If baseball is a team game, then Halladay is not great because not only has he not led his team anywhere, he hasn't led them close to anywhere. OTOH, if baseball is really an individual game masquerading as a team game, then fine, he's great because his stats rate high according to Geeks-R-Us.

I have no idea why you continue to perpetuate these silly ideas.

Halladay only pitches once every 5 days. He can't win every single game for the team, especially when the team simply isn't good enough.

Despite a sub-par 2nd half he still was one of the best pitchers in the game this year - that's how good he is.

I'm still waiting to see that list of pitchers you believe are better than Halladay.

There was a clear point to firing them -- the Devils weren't confident in those coaches going into the playoffs.

Just as Rogers wasn't confident in Ricciardi. There is nothing wrong with firing him with two games left - it was a message to to the fans when the team was still getting some attention.

The fact is, he should've been fired years ago. The Jays showed him a lot more class than he displayed as GM.

I can't help it I have class. Bob McCown may have made a fool of himself speculating why JP was let go at such an odd date, but I don't want to get on that bandwagon.

Again, unless they were jumping the gun to hire his replacement from outside the organization before anyone else could, there was zero point to this.

Assuming you haven't been paying attention for the past 8 years, that makes perfect sense.

That's true, but they didn't figure out all that until the day of game #161?

Two classless people/acts don't equal class, and to make it even more comical, the classless idiot who hired JP was on the radio this week trying (unsuccessfully) to distance himself from him.

There is nothing classless about the way the Ricciardi firing was handled. It was the right time to do it if they wanted to make sure the message had its greatest impact.

 

[syn]

I don't know how Rogers can financially justify the Jays when they get less than 11,000 people. The Blue Jays is spending over US$72 million on salaries in 2009 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=tor

In 2008 the total attendance at the Rogers Centre for Blue Jays games was 2.4 million people http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/toroatte.shtml

That means each ticket sold must cover US$30 in salary costs. Yes, there are other sources of revenue, such as television and radio rights, licensed clothing sales, but without good attendance, I'd say the team must be in financial trouble soon.

The Jays are a marketing vehicle for Rogers. Even if the organization is losing money, ultimately they provide valuable marketing exposure. They also provide some premium content for their sports channel (Sportsnet).

 

[jn_12]

Beeston said this rumour was completely false.

Doesn't mean it's not true. Since we're on the topic of "class", Beeston is known as one of the classiest people in the game. He's not about to blab to the world about why he fired someone beyond the vague "we decided to mvoe in another direction, etc". The people in the sport know what happened, and if the rumours are true (and considering the news was reported by ESPN and not by any of the local beat grunts, it seems somewhat likely) it's going to have an impact on JP's future career opportunities.

 

[GenerationW]

Doesn't mean it's not true. Since we're on the topic of "class", Beeston is known as one of the classiest people in the game. He's not about to blab to the world about why he fired someone beyond the vague "we decided to mvoe in another direction, etc". The people in the sport know what happened, and if the rumours are true (and considering the news was reported by ESPN and not by any of the local beat grunts, it seems somewhat likely) it's going to have an impact on JP's future career opportunities.

We have to go with Beeston and, as you called it, his class and accept his clear statement on the radio that it's not true. Unless you're willing to accuse Beeston of being a classless liar like J.P. of course.

 

[GenerationW]

I have no idea why you continue to perpetuate these silly ideas.

Halladay only pitches once every 5 days. He can't win every single game for the team, especially when the team simply isn't good enough.

Despite a sub-par 2nd half he still was one of the best pitchers in the game this year - that's how good he is.

I'm still waiting to see that list of pitchers you believe are better than Halladay.

I could give a crap what his numbers are (even though describing his second half as "sub-par" is an apologists dream). Again, if baseball is a team game, and Halladay is as great as many say, then one year in his career he has to be able to lead his team and pile up enough extra wins (even if he "only" pitches every fifth day) to get to, if not a championship, if not a World Series, if not a playoff spot, then at the very least some kind of legitimate September pennant race. Great players, even overcoming the odds, lead their team somewhere at least once in their careers. Cite the case.

On the other hand, if baseball is actually just an individual game, then I'll go with your "list of pitchers" and call him great. But you can't have it both ways.

Just as Rogers wasn't confident in Ricciardi. There is nothing wrong with firing him with two games left - it was a message to to the fans when the team was still getting some attention.

The fact is, he should've been fired years ago. The Jays showed him a lot more class than he displayed as GM.

Assuming you haven't been paying attention for the past 8 years, that makes perfect sense.

There is nothing classless about the way the Ricciardi firing was handled. It was the right time to do it if they wanted to make sure the message had its greatest impact.

They should have and could have easily waited two more lousy days. No reason to treat him with the same (low) class that J.P. displayed.

 

[syn]

I could give a crap what his numbers are (even though describing his second half as "sub-par" is an apologists dream).

This is exactly why you're argument is so ridiculous. You have no problem completely ignoring the facts.

Again, if baseball is a team game, and Halladay is as great as many say, then one year in his career he has to be able to lead his team and pile up enough extra wins (even if he "only" pitches every fifth day) to get to, if not a championship, if not a World Series, if not a playoff spot, then at the very least some kind of legitimate September pennant race. Great players, even overcoming the odds, lead their team somewhere at least once in their careers. Cite the case.

On the other hand, if baseball is actually just an individual game, then I'll go with your "list of pitchers" and call him great. But you can't have it both ways.

If baseball is a team game then it's pretty stupid to blame one player for their inability to make the playoffs these past 8 years. Do you honestly think the Jays of the early 90s found success because of the leadership and play of just one person? Take any one player from those Championship teams, have them replace anyone from any of the teams the Jays have had for the past 8 years and I guarantee they still aren't winning anything.

You can't squeeze blood out of a rock. Even the greatest leader in the sport can't simply will his teammates to be better than they are. I suppose it's Halladay's fault that Wells is an underachiever, Royce Clayton wasn't an MVP and McDonald never hits .350.

The simple fact is, teams that win the World Series are great teams. Not mediocre teams willed to victory by one great player.

They should have and could have easily waited two more lousy days. No reason to treat him with the same (low) class that J.P. displayed.

It's pretty obvious why they fired him when they did. They were sending a message to fans. Waiting until the season was over with media coverage winding down would've been yet another mistake.

Poor Ricciardi. I guess it's Halladay's fault he lost his job though, right?

 

[jn_12]

Syn, I'm gonna say we stop dealing with him. He's just trolling now and really has nothing constructive to add, nor anything remotely decent to counter our points with. The guy has clearly never played a sport in his life (at least not one at any level of significance) so his understanding of how things really work is muddy at best.


Moving on, last weekend I talked to a friend of mine who worked for the Jays and worked with AA and he said the guy is the real deal. Lots of potential, honest, bright and a really good work ethic. I think one of the best things about the guy is his youth and the fact that only a few years ago he was just a fan. So he gets the issues and the frustration found in the Jays fanbase. Hopefully they keep him around when a new President comes in. It'd be a shame to lose a talent like that.