Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

ok....but why would they not say "defer until the information comes in" as opposed to "defer until March 2015"?

Bombardier is about 1 year behind their delivery schedule thus far and it takes some time (6 months or more) for the airlines to accept the aircraft and put it into service.

There will not be real-world measurements in March 2014 because the aircraft is not ready; I can't find a press release indicating Malmö has received a unit for their engineers to tear down yet.

March 2015 may be optimistic for having reliable data.
 
Peepers:

Did you miss the bit about how TC wasn't able to certify the performance characteristics of the plane? Porter is playing politics by requesting the extension before they have hard data with an untested plane in the first place. Are you suggesting that the city should vote on the plan without certified data (beyond what's provided by the Pratt-Whitney, in a non-standard test setting) just because Porter wanted to?

And funny you should be raising what Olivia Chow *might* do when the deputy mayor has already stated that they want to rush because precisely because of that fear. Why, we need to schedule votes before we get final data because we fear the stance of the next mayor? The data isn't good enough to stand on its' own?

AoD

The certification process for an aircraft takes about one year from first flight. The city doesn't need to have TC official certification in order to make a determination on the noise characteristics of the aircraft. They can make reliable measurements based on the test aircraft that are now in operation. If need be I am sure that Bombardier would be happy to fly one of the test aircraft to Downsview so that council members can listen with their own ears.

Even if you accept the position that staff cannot make any recommendation before transport Canada certifies the aircraft this certification will come long before March 2015 in fact if the aircraft is still scheduled to enter commercial service next fall which means that transport Canada certification could come as early as the end of next summer!

As for Norm Kelly's position did he say he wants to "rush" the decision before the next election? I haven't heard that. The plan was always to have a decision this year.

ShonTron:

And even assuming that staff would somehow play politics - why would they suggest a route that more or less conflicts with the current stance of their boss in the first place? One'd think that appeasing the current boss is more of a sure bet than playing for one that might not materialize down the road.

AoD

I doubt if the staffers at city hall view Norm Kelly (or Rob Ford) as their "boss" (do you?). I think many of them have a left wing bent and they push their own political agenda.
 
Peepers is borderline trolling.

Anyone who knows anything about how politics are supposed to work is that bureaucrats are responsible for day-to-day operations and policy development, but taking their direction from the elected government (at any level). The staffers are directed to report on this issue. They recommend waiting for more facts to come in. That's not "playing politics" - and I'm sure Peepers knows this. Council of course is free to "receive" this advice while in effect ignoring it and vote to go ahead.

Council votes opposite to staff recommendations quite often, especially about little things like development applications and putting in traffic control signs/signals.

What I know is that city staffers can have a political agenda that differs from that of the mayor and they are not afraid to interfere with the will of the mayor (or deputy mayor in this case).

A good example of this was seen at the last town hall meeting:

Fast forward to 30:50 in the video: http://www.rogerstv.com/page.aspx?lid=237&rid=16&sid=5977&gid=117831

A city staffer was asked to comment on the content of the questionnaire posted on the city website. Rob Berry with economic development culture responded:

"city council directed us to look at the benefit of allowing jet traffic into Billy Bishop that is what our direction was and that is what we were able to do"

The inference of course was that they were not supposed to look at any of the negatives only the benefits of the proposed expansion. When he made this comment the audience erupted into groans (which is probably the response he was looking for).

The implication that city staff were not directed to look at the downside of this proposal was patently false and in the days following this town hall meeting city hall would issue a clarification confirming that staff were indeed asked to look at all aspects - good and bad.

This was an example of a city staffer playing politics by trying to pour fire on a debate instead of doing his job and reporting dispassionately and factually (if it were up to me I would have fired him the next morning.).
 
Staffers do not push their own political agenda, and if you have ever attended a meeting you would understand this. They very specifically follow council guidelines. council specified to determine noise levels, and they were unable to do so. This means that they recommended to delay the vote to get that information as council had stated they wanted it. Other examples include Massey tower, where there was large support in almost every circle, including planning circles. but due to guidelines set out by council, they were forced to recommend refusal. You also see this with Mirvish-Gehry, where there are large amounts of planners supporting the project (though not nearly as much as Massey) but they recommended refusal as that is what should be done according to council set guidelines. The only time planners are even allowed to express personal opinions on issues is if a councillor specifically asks them during a council meeting.
 
Staffers do not push their own political agenda, and if you have ever attended a meeting you would understand this. They very specifically follow council guidelines. council specified to determine noise levels, and they were unable to do so. This means that they recommended to delay the vote to get that information as council had stated they wanted it. Other examples include Massey tower, where there was large support in almost every circle, including planning circles. but due to guidelines set out by council, they were forced to recommend refusal. You also see this with Mirvish-Gehry, where there are large amounts of planners supporting the project (though not nearly as much as Massey) but they recommended refusal as that is what should be done according to council set guidelines. The only time planners are even allowed to express personal opinions on issues is if a councillor specifically asks them during a council meeting.

Did you see the video that I linked to in the above comment? I find it hard to believe that this city staffer didn't have an agenda when he mischievously implied that city staff were only asked to look at the positives and not the negatives of the Porter proposal. His comment provoked a rabid response from the No-Jets crowd.

As for city staff just following council guidelines they have not done so in this case. Council asked them to determine if noise levels of the CSeries are comparable to that of the Q400. They don't have to wait until transport Canada certifies the aircraft in order to obtain this data and even if they did certification is expected long before March 2015 so how did they come up with this date?

How did they come up with a date that is after the next election? Was someone playing politics? I think that this is a completely reasonable question to ask ( and you can be sure lots of people will be asking this question!)

Remember that the noise issue is the ONLY issue to be considered. All the other issues from traffic congestion, lengthening the runways, impact on the waterfront school etc. are just red-herrings intended to cloud the issue. Whether or not the CSeries gets approved traffic to and from Billy Bishop will only increase which means that the city has to do something on the land-side to alleviate the congestion (logically the school needs to be relocated and replaced with the land-side terminal and parking structure).

Same issue with lengthening of the runway's. With or without the CSeries the runways will need to be lengthened for safety reason's and this is not an issue for the city to decide.
 
They don't have to wait until transport Canada certifies the aircraft in order to obtain this data and even if they did certification is expected long before March 2015 so how did they come up with this date?

Certification sometimes requires small design changes which do impact these kinds of things. I don't see how staff could measure today's aircraft and make any kind of prediction that it will reflect what goes into service.

The report does say they expect the CS100 will meet the noise requirements; just that they cannot be independently verified.


How did they come up with a date that is after the next election?

That is a reasonable question and one staff should have answered in their recommendation to defer (I've not read this; I'm taking your word that they didn't explain why).

I expect it's a fairly mundane answer like they called Bombardier and asked when measurements from in-service aircraft could be taken by an independent 3rd party, and they said January 2015.


A request by TPA to extend the tripartite agreement by 50 years to 2083 is also in this package. That decision should not be taken lightly.
 
Last edited:
Remember that the noise issue is the ONLY issue to be considered. All the other issues from traffic congestion, lengthening the runways, impact on the waterfront school etc. are just red-herrings intended to cloud the issue.

Actually it is quite opposite. Ironically noise is the issue to create "noise" and cloud all other real issues, as Norm Kelly said today "I don’t care. It could be planes propelled by rubber bands, as long as it’s quiet". I don't agree. I live in waterfront and even if planes can fly as quiet as birds there would be other issues still bothering me, like:

- Why should we lease hundreds of acres of world class recreational area for another 50 years to a private company for $1 a year?

- Why TPA and Porter doesn't pay property taxes?

- Why city is doing such a poor job in separating industrial, residential and recreational areas and wasting hundreds of millions of dollars?

- Why should we keep BB Airport while there is still capacity at Pearson? What is the benefit?

- Is it safe to have a public school, daycare, community center and playground for neighbor kids within 300 meters of the runway?

- How does it effect the air quality having +70,000 flights in & out from downtown? Are we still within the limits advised by World Health Organization?

- What is this black oily thing on my windows?

- And many more

Whether or not the CSeries gets approved traffic to and from Billy Bishop will only increase which means that the city has to do something on the land-side to alleviate the congestion (logically the school needs to be relocated and replaced with the land-side terminal and parking structure).

I don't agree. Without jets and with current limitations they are pretty much at their peak. This is why they desperately need jets, either to survive, or sell the company and exit. Won't be first for Mr. Deluce.

Also, why on earth you think we should spend taxpayers money to relocate a public school to built a parking for a private company?

Same issue with lengthening of the runway's. With or without the CSeries the runways will need to be lengthened for safety reason's and this is not an issue for the city to decide.

Again I don't agree. Tripartite agreement doesn't allow any expansion, period. So, if it is not safe anymore, they should operate from another airport.
 
TPA doesn't pay property taxes as it is a city of Toronto agency. that would be like paying themselves. Porter doesn't own the airport, and it pays airport fees to operate out of it just like Air Canada.

how are we wasting hundreds of millions again? the expansion is to be paid for through airport fees.

The school is 650 meters away, but still close.

202 movements a day. Thats not that much, and it absolutely does not max out the amount that the airport can be used for.

I can tell you right now that much more pollution comes from the Gardiner than the airport. there are 150,000 cars daily that pass by, but you are complaining about 200 planes.

city isn't doing a poor job, it is creating residential neighborhoods out of old industrial areas while still accommodating for the remaining uses such as the airport. The same thing is occuring with Redpaths. and Lafarge in the portlands.
 
Canada is notoriously bad at supporting it's own companies. If Toronto can't allow Bombardier and Porter to succeed here, then that's just sad (yes, I own some Bombardier shares, and I think Canadian businesses should be allowed to thrive when they're being innovative!)
 
Canada is notoriously bad at supporting it's own companies. If Toronto can't allow Bombardier and Porter to succeed here, then that's just sad (yes, I own some Bombardier shares, and I think Canadian businesses should be allowed to thrive when they're being innovative!)


This is an important point that too many local politicians lose sight of or just don't care about. As part of Porter's expansion proposal there is a tentative order for six more Q400's from Bombardier Downsview. The Adam Vaughans and Olivia Chows of the world might not think that the jobs related to the sale of six aircraft are important but I am sure that the workers at Downsview - most of whom live IN Toronto and pay property taxes here would welcome this order.

Then there is the much bigger picture related to the success of the CSeries. Like any all new aircraft design it could use a few more sales to fatten its order book. Air Canada is currently evaluating a massive order for single isle aircraft. If Porter were given the green light to use CSeries at Billy Bishop I could see Air Canada's procurement decision tilting in favor of the CSeries as they would want this aircraft to go head to head with Porter at Billy Bishop. A huge order from Air Canada could be crucial to the future success of the CSeries program. As Canadians we should all want to see Bombardier succeed as it is the only homegrown manufacturing success story left in this country.

We forget how important airports are to the local economy. I was watching a program the other night on Dubai and I was surprised to learn that 1/3 of its economic activity comes from the Dubai Airport (which has the largest terminal in the world). They now make more money from their airport and the airlines based there than they do from the oil under the ground!

If Toronto City council cant get its act together I would hope that the federal government would step in and make the decision for Toronto for the sake of this country and the residents of Toronto!
 
Last edited:
Canada is notoriously bad at supporting it's own companies. If Toronto can't allow Bombardier and Porter to succeed here, then that's just sad (yes, I own some Bombardier shares, and I think Canadian businesses should be allowed to thrive when they're being innovative!)

Agreed....plus I want to fly to my favourite destination of Van City from not-Pearson. (I know, I know...it's not about ME.)

Peepers, Dubai's economy being 1/3 dependent on its airport is a bad economic reality, not something to emulate. Having that much of any economy dependent on something that specific is never a good thing.
 
Last edited:
If Toronto City council cant get its act together I would hope that the federal government would step in and make the decision for Toronto for the sake of this country and the residents of Toronto!

I would hope not! The only place the federal government can step is outside. They don't have our best interests at heart.
 
TPA doesn't pay property taxes as it is a city of Toronto agency. that would be like paying themselves.

TPA is not a city of Toronto agency, they report to Federal Government. And it is not an excuse to not paying taxes.

Porter doesn't own the airport, and it pays airport fees to operate out of it just like Air Canada.

TPA is a federal agency and operating a federal airport on Canadian soil. Once they record an income from their operations, it belongs to the Federal Government, thus all Canadians. They cannot claim ownership of that money and spend to promote business of a private company. I expect them to pay their taxes first, and return the excess amount of profit (if any) to the federal budget.

how are we wasting hundreds of millions again? the expansion is to be paid for through airport fees.

No it is not. Only tunnel project costs 80+ million dollars and TPA is planning to charge $20 per passenger to cover the cost of it. It is still not clear who will pay for the cost of the airport expansion (definitely not Porter), which may cost 10 times more than the tunnel itself.

Once tripartite agreement is amended we (tax payers) will be liable to pay all expansion costs to ensure Porter continues its operations thanks to "confidential" agreement signed between TPA and Porter.

Again, once a passenger pays a $20 fee to a Federal Agency, it belongs to Canadian Government and all Canadians. Therefore I expect it to be utilized to improve services at the main airport which serves ALL, instead of tunneling that money to an airport which serves mostly to ONE private company.

I am not even going into billions being poured into development of the Waterfront and Union-Pearson rail connection.

The school is 650 meters away, but still close.

Looks much closer to me but I didn't measure.

202 movements a day. Thats not that much, and it absolutely does not max out the amount that the airport can be used for.

It is way too many than what it was allowed for. TPA gradually increased allowed movements from 70s to 202 through playing with NEF calculations without executing any real impact assessment. Entire waterfront neighborhood which supposed to be "noise sensitive" area is now turning into a noisy, dirty airport neighborhood.

I can tell you right now that much more pollution comes from the Gardiner than the airport. there are 150,000 cars daily that pass by, but you are complaining about 200 planes.

Agree. Do you have a solution for that which will not cost billions of dollars?

city isn't doing a poor job, it is creating residential neighborhoods out of old industrial areas while still accommodating for the remaining uses such as the airport. The same thing is occuring with Redpaths. and Lafarge in the portlands.

It does. This is their mandate:

"Major facilities such as airports, transportation/rail infrastructure, corridors and yards, waste management facilities and industries and sensitive land uses such as residencies and educational and health facilities will be appropriately designed, buffered and/or separated from each other to prevent adverse effects from noise, vibration, odour and other contaminants, and to promote safety. To assist in identifying impacts and mitigative measures, the proponent may be required to prepare studies in accordance with guidelines established for this purpose. The proponent will be responsible for implementing any required mitigative measures".
 
Canada is notoriously bad at supporting it's own companies. If Toronto can't allow Bombardier and Porter to succeed here, then that's just sad (yes, I own some Bombardier shares, and I think Canadian businesses should be allowed to thrive when they're being innovative!)

Porter's or Bombardier's success or failure cannot be tied to BB Airport. I am sure Porter can be as successful at Pearson too.
 

Back
Top