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Baby, we got a bubble!?

So as not to confuse the markets (markets hate uncertainty as we all know), he will raise likely 1/2% this year yet though perhaps not the 3/4 to 1% predicted for the year and may pause then so as to maintain credibility but not significantly harm the accomodative monetary stance. Present rates are still very historically low and the last thing he needs is a big pop in the housing market. So if he can let air out slowly, this would be viewed probably as a good thing from a policy point of view.

Already be done. Finito. Kaput. Ya. When the calendar turned to July 1 the air was out, actually before. So this is my point. Why the obsession with raising rates still? Answer....this baby is hummin' more than you or i know, and that is bullish. I'd still rather see the rates remain unchanged, but if they are still seeing a need, and we assume they know what they are doing, then i guess we need it. But if they do, who are you or anybody to start saying we need to be worried about the U.S. and Europe and Asia...i mean, that is his job...and as i posted earlier, if he is pouring through all the info and still says we need a rate hike, then it's silly to say we have a 2 month lag to the U.S. and we are in for a hurtin'.

Not trying to be a pain here, but just sayin', let the experts do their job and if they say we need a rate hike, and they know what they are doin' then peoples worries are unfounded.

Now if you want to argue they don't know what they're doing.......i ok with that but let's here that. I'm certainly questioning the need for a rate hike now...but i don't see all the info they do.
 
Alan Greenspan "knew" what he was doing, as did Wall Street. I think we need to acknowledge that there's a lot more chaos in the system than we're told. The "market" is not ultimately only a matter of supply and demand, it is extremely emotional and economists are more often wrong than right. Carney will definitely raise by 1/4 on Wed, but after that it's anyone's guess. I'd bet he'll take a breather. The base fact is that we all (in most of the Western World) live unsustainably and off the backs of the less fortunate, we just don't want to admit to ourselves that not everybody can live like us...if we continue to live like us.
 
Already be done. Finito. Kaput. Ya. When the calendar turned to July 1 the air was out, actually before. So this is my point. Why the obsession with raising rates still? Answer....this baby is hummin' more than you or i know, and that is bullish. I'd still rather see the rates remain unchanged, but if they are still seeing a need, and we assume they know what they are doing, then i guess we need it. But if they do, who are you or anybody to start saying we need to be worried about the U.S. and Europe and Asia...i mean, that is his job...and as i posted earlier, if he is pouring through all the info and still says we need a rate hike, then it's silly to say we have a 2 month lag to the U.S. and we are in for a hurtin'.

Not trying to be a pain here, but just sayin', let the experts do their job and if they say we need a rate hike, and they know what they are doin' then peoples worries are unfounded.

Now if you want to argue they don't know what they're doing.......i ok with that but let's here that. I'm certainly questioning the need for a rate hike now...but i don't see all the info they do.

To responds to your points. The market actually peaked in Dec 2009. There is a lag between when it is clear that a market peak occurs and when people realize it occurs. It is judeged in hindsite.
Monetary policy has alot more to do than just with housing. This is one element, my Five, but just that, one element of many which go into the calculation of leading indicators.

As well, decisions made today take about a year to filter through so Mark Carney and the BOC are looking forward. Remember, their main mandate is to control inflation. If he sees any indication of that, he has to react. Things were looking a bit better 2-3 months ago and there were some inflationary signs in the economy and hence Mark Carney's decision to move. Remember, we are still in very easy monetary policy even if rates go up 1%. I would suggest a read of the news and the points I brought up about the US,Europe and China have shown that the situation has worsened from just 3 months ago, or at least are not as rosy.

My comments about US, Europe and Asia are simply observatory in nature. You are correct that Mark Carney has to look at the global picture and figure out how/what to do with Canada in the big picture environment. My point is that all these places around him are experiencing some problems and this will weigh on his decisions going forward. Once he made the decision however to increase, if he just does one increase and nothing further, given that the effects are seen 1 year down the road, he does look a bit indecisive if he totally stops and the market then looks and asks if he knows what he is doing and that adds to uncertainty.

Central Bankers are human and certainly have made a lot of bad decisions and will continue to do so. They make however some very good ones as well. They can only evaluate data and do what they can.

That said, remember, it is not Mark Carney's problem if you or I or other investors make or lose money on our real estate purchases individually. His concern is to provide a stable enviroment in which to invest for Canada without more than their targeted 2% inflation. Incidently, we can talk about the 2% inflation and how that is calculated if you like but real inflation is in fact far higher than reported. The core CPI excludes volatile components such as gas and food. Well, I don't know about others on this forum but when I can stop driving and eating, then these components won't matter. This represents a very significant amount of our family's expenses so saying inflation is low is a bit of a misnomer.

As well, as for experts doing their job. Look what happened in 2008. Ahhh, maybe they can get it wrong. This should never be a reason for others to critically evaluate and formulate an opinion. That is what this forum is about. Expressing ideas and opinions and hopefully we are all the wiser for it. You can still rely on the experts if you choose at the end of the day. I just think one should make informed decisions and not follow blindly because "an expert says so".

Finally, alot of experts have vested interests in certain outcomes. This would have to call into question their objectivity and conclusions. There is no substitute for critical judgement. Then, if you still get it wrong, at least you made as good an informed decision as one could at the time.

Besides, this is a forum for discussion. I am simply providing reasons as to why I have a certain point of view as are others. This surely must be more constructive than just saying things will crash or things will go up up up with no reasoning behind it.

Sorry for the long winded answer.
 
Well, it sucks actually. Mid-July sales are the lowest since before 2004 - and by a long shot. Condo sales are down 38% from last year. While new listing are down 8%, which is good, it still means that the total number of listings is growing substantially. Price drops are already occuring and even condo launches (Bisha, Liberty Central and possibly others) are being reconsidered. It's pretty much November 2008 again, it just doesn't feel like it because we're wearing rose coloured glasses and think that the economy is doing ok, when it ain't.
 
I believe that a "condo bubble" is very different than a general real estate bubble.

Homes in the GTA are selling at very high prices and selling at a nice speed.

Demand for rental properties are also very good, from Richmond Hill to Aurora to Newmarket. You never have a hard time finding a good tenant and the prices are higher than many Toronto rents. 3 bedroom units are renting for $1300 +
 
It's pretty much November 2008 again, it just doesn't feel like it because we're wearing rose coloured glasses and think that the economy is doing ok, when it ain't.

Tell that to the Bank of Canada which by all accounts appears to be set to raise interest rates today. If the economy really isn't doing well, and we raise rates......
 
I believe that a "condo bubble" is very different than a general real estate bubble.

Homes in the GTA are selling at very high prices and selling at a nice speed.

Demand for rental properties are also very good, from Richmond Hill to Aurora to Newmarket. You never have a hard time finding a good tenant and the prices are higher than many Toronto rents. 3 bedroom units are renting for $1300 +

Actually GTA sales and price declines for July mid month are virtually identical for condo's and freehold properties.
 
I believe that a "condo bubble" is very different than a general real estate bubble.

Homes in the GTA are selling at very high prices and selling at a nice speed.

Demand for rental properties are also very good, from Richmond Hill to Aurora to Newmarket. You never have a hard time finding a good tenant and the prices are higher than many Toronto rents. 3 bedroom units are renting for $1300 +

I agree they are 2 seperte markets, houses vs. condos and condos probably are more at risk. that said, as pointed out, single family dwellings are also at risk and are down in price.

3 bedroom units at $1300 obviously is apartment supply and there is very little of this product available in the core and certainly not at $1300. that is the price of a decent 2 bedroom(at present) apartment and much below a condo at this price.

Using this argument, one is better to buy in smaller/mid town University cities in Ontario as one gets even better rents though appreciation has been limited.

I personally would only buy a condo for investment in the downtown core since if it is people's argument that there is land available for construction in the core, there is virtually limitless land available in the suburbs to put up condos. Hence, over the long term, I would believe the core is better off though it may suffer from transient overbuilding and more severe price hits.

There would be more money in long term appreciation in the core (in my opinion) than in the suburbs.

that said, I live in a house in the suburbs.:)
 
Carney raised rates 1/4% as expected as per the Globe and Mail this morning..

The interesting thing is that it is reported that he now expects the economy to recover at least 6 months behind his last projections. As well, it is stated that the consumer will spend less and business will lead out rather than the consumer who will be less of a force.
Logic would dictate this supports the hypothesis that with less consumers leading us out of the slowed economy, less houses and condos will be bought. I believe this adds further credence to the arguement that house/condo prices will drop more and for a longer protracted period.
 
Using this argument, one is better to buy in smaller/mid town University cities in Ontario as one gets even better rents though appreciation has been limited.
Student housing is misunderstood and often overestimated. Prices are usually already very high. There is little room for any appreciation. And many of the properties are in bad shape. Furthermore, students often don't have guarantors, don't like to stay for a 12 month lease, and cause great wear and tear on the property. And many universities are now supplying more of their own housing to students. Take a trip to Waterloo. Realtors there aggressively sell the the "Waterloo student housing hook." Just go there, and see all the new university residences and all the 'for rent' signs in the drab private student rental areas. Also, lots of 'for sale' signs.

There are properties in the GTA that are far more attractive. Although those are getting scare fast. Places such as Aurora and Newmarket have seen huge price gains in the past year. Good properties with legal second units are up around 60-100k from last year! And why do you think total rents are only $1300? Add a second suite at $900. And in some cases a legal third for $750.

I have a friend retiring who is selling his duplex in St. Catherines for $165,000. He gets $850 up and $650 down, tenants pay their own utilities. In a nice area of town. You have to keep your eyes open for these kind of deals.
 
It's pretty much November 2008 again, it just doesn't feel like it because we're wearing rose coloured glasses and think that the economy is doing ok, when it ain't.

Since it seems that the markets are 90% speculation, this should be ok.
 

Overall, calling for about 3% per year growth for the next 3 years and making it sound horrible! The whole tone is really odd. I think we all can appreciate the global risks at play right now, but, he's obviously still jackin' rates and projecting good growth and there are stong employment numbers....so it's like the party is on but if we get too loud the cops may come around!
 
Overall, calling for about 3% per year growth for the next 3 years and making it sound horrible! The whole tone is really odd. I think we all can appreciate the global risks at play right now, but, he's obviously still jackin' rates and projecting good growth and there are stong employment numbers....so it's like the party is on but if we get too loud the cops may come around!

The employment numbers, as referenced elsewhere on the forum, are anything but strong. 97% of the replacement jobs have been part time or self-employed (otherwise known as probably little to no job) vs the full time that they were. In addition, Carney clearly states that income growth will be next to nothing and it might takes years, YEARS, to get back to pre-recession level unemployment rates. He's raising rates because he's afraid of fueling a fake economy, one built on more and more and more debt that will eventually have to be paid. He's trying to walk a very fine line - unlike the US and Europe who are being complete idiots about it and still throwing money they don't have at problems they'll only make worse. While 3% isn't anything to shake a stick at and is decent, at that rate, this recession will take until around 2014 to get back to levels we were seeing 2 years ago. That's a 6 year long process and, correct me if I'm wrong, the longest recovery time from a recession since records have been kept. Hardly a rosy picture. Look for places that intended to sell for $800 (think Chaz), dropping down to $600 and I bet in a year, you'll be able to buy in places like ICE 2 for less than you could at anytime in the past year.
 

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