Baby, we got a bubble!?

[Undead]

Why is that? I admit I don't have any experience actually living in them, though I know someone who rented in one for a year and didn't have issues.

I agree with the take that townhouses are the worst of both worlds. However there's nuance. The older (60s-90s) townhomes were wider and with two floors. Most feel like a detached house inside. However, I strongly dislike the new towns with three and four floors. Those have cramped floors, too many stairs, and too many long and narrow hallways. I'd rather put the extra spend required to get a town over a condo into a nicer condo. Somehow, I feel more cramped in a 1,300 sq.ft. three floor town than in a 1,000 sq.ft. condo. Something about the endless stairs, narrow hallways and small floors gets me.

edit: the worst of both worlds for the narrow, tall new towns is they feel cramped like a new condo on each floor and lack a backyard.

Here's a question about property taxes. Let's say we're densifying the yellowbelt Houston style. We redevelop a 50x100 post war lot with three townhouses, but each one pays the same amount of property tax as the former detached house--roughly 5-7 thousand a year in North York and Scarborough. So we get a significant source of new revenue for the City. Does this make sense? Given that detached houses have roughly tripled in price since 2010, seems like it would be appropriate to wring triple the property tax take from each lot. @Northern Light any insights?

 

[Northern Light]

Somehow, I feel more cramped in a 1,300 sq.ft. three floor town than in a 1,000 sq.ft. condo. Something about the endless stairs, narrow hallways and small floors gets me.

Some wonder why I still rent.....when I could afford other choices.......

I have 1,100ft2 for a price that's.......ummm.........LOL....a lot less than what I would spend to own..............a much smaller unit.

I don't feel crowded in my 1,100ft2, but I wouldn't want it much smaller. My master is 12x14 with a walk-in.

I have a storage room (in-unit)

The 3rd bedroom is my home office.

I have a spare bedroom 10x12.

I have room to entertain.

I really can't fathom buying a 700ft2 condo, never mind 400!

and lack a backyard.

This is key to me.

Interior space can be easily added in Condos/Apartments (even if it rarely is); the absence of outdoor space is the differentiator to many purchasers.

Here's a question about property taxes. Let's say we're densifying the yellowbelt Houston style. We redevelop a 50x100 post war lot with three townhouses, but each one pays the same amount of property tax as the former detached house--roughly 5-7 thousand a year in North York and Scarborough. So we get a significant source of new revenue for the City. Does this make sense? Given that detached houses have roughly tripled in price since 2010, seems like it would be appropriate to wring triple the property tax take from each lot. @Northern Light any insights?

Property Tax is assessed as a percentage of assessed value.

I doubt you could triple a lot's density and hold average unit value constant.

That seems unlikely.

But you could almost certainly see a sizable accretive gain.

****

There are different ways to assess property tax.........

I happen to favour UVA (unit value assessment) as opposed to MVA (what we use now, which is Market Value Assessment).

But that formula too which likely dictate a lower per unit take when dividing a lot thrice.

But a net gain overall.

 

[afransen]

Stacked townhomes are the worst of both worlds, hence why they almost never get built anymore.

Uhhh, aren't there tonnes of these being built on the outskirts of the GTA?

 

[LoMein]

Uhhh, aren't there tonnes of these being built on the outskirts of the GTA?

Like where? Lots of townhomes being built in new suburbs but I've never seen stacked townhomes. Most of the stacked townhomes are from old developments like Liberty Village.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Uhhh, aren't there tonnes of these being built on the outskirts of the GTA?

They indeed are. Most new subdivisions have a high density block and a medium density block within their plans, and those medium density blocks often end up being back-to-back townhomes or stacked townhomes (or occasionally, stacked, back-to-back townhomes).

I echo the comment that stacked townhomes are kinda the worst of both worlds, but I do still think there is a place for them within our housing typology. They are move-up homes that two condo dwellers might consider purchasing after having kids, for instance. One day in the future they may want to move up again to a detached or semi-detached home. Today, there are very few 'missing middle' typologies out there, so the binary choice of condo or detached home doesn't cover the full breadth of peoples housing needs.

The other way to create a greater supply of housing that fit the full breadth of peoples needs are to build up more suburban downtowns and centres with higher density development. I am thinking of places like Oakville and Burlington. They present perfect opportunities to build condos with larger average unit sizes and overall cheaper prices compared to Toronto. I believe if those urban centres are built up into something vibrant, livable, and walkable from the perspective of anti-suburbia Toronto condo dwellers, they will be more willing to accept the sacrifices of leaving downtown Toronto in exchange for the benefits of those smaller centres especially as they progress through different stages of life.

 

[Undead]

The skinny three and four floor towns could be improved by reverting to the older, squat two floor format, but with minimal set backs and yards to maintain higher density. The older towns tend to have overly large setbacks.

Like where? Lots of townhomes being built in new suburbs but I've never seen stacked townhomes. Most of the stacked townhomes are from old developments like Liberty Village.

I believe Aspen Ridge's "Scenic on Eglinton" at Eglinton and Leslie has over 100 stacked towns.

This newer development on the outer edge of Brampton: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...3d43.7585826!4d-79.7577197!14m1!1BCgIgARICCAI

I've also seen higher density back to back towns in Durham.

Stacks in North York Centre: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.774...4!1sMrV7hq-FQgASBJ4aYs2LWA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

[LoMein]

The skinny three and four floor towns could be improved by reverting to the older, squat two floor format, but with minimal set backs and yards to maintain higher density. The older towns tend to have overly large setbacks.

I believe Aspen Ridge's "Scenic on Eglinton" at Eglinton and Leslie has over 100 stacked towns.

This newer development on the outer edge of Brampton: https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...3d43.7585826!4d-79.7577197!14m1!1BCgIgARICCAI

I've also seen higher density back to back towns in Durham.

Scenic on Eglinton is a condo development. Look at the towers above the "stacked towns". My condo has townhouses at the base as well but it's disingenuous to say this is a "stacked townhouse development". It wouldn't be economical to develop without the condo tower.

The Brampton ones are actual stacked townhomes. What an awful place to live...imo.

 

[afransen]

Like where? Lots of townhomes being built in new suburbs but I've never seen stacked townhomes. Most of the stacked townhomes are from old developments like Liberty Village.

Check out Churchill Meadows area of Mississauga, which was one of the latest areas to be filled in Mississauga. I think the Ninth Line lands are going to be developed with stacked townhouses. I've seen lots of it in Milton as well.

 

[Undead]

Scenic on Eglinton is a condo development. Look at the towers above the "stacked towns". My condo has townhouses at the base as well but it's disingenuous to say this is a "stacked townhouse development". It wouldn't be economical to develop without the condo tower.

The Brampton ones are actual stacked townhomes. What an awful place to live...imo.

...
Open Google streetview. I was referring to the townhouses beside the tower.

 

[afransen]

The skinny three and four floor towns could be improved by reverting to the older, squat two floor format, but with minimal set backs and yards to maintain higher density. The older towns tend to have overly large setbacks.

I would also advocate for narrower streets. Even some of the private streets in townhouse complexes are huge (presumably to accommodate fire engines). And while it is probably too early to be building houses without much parking, in a robotaxi future it is a waste of space to have a garage/driveway. I would expect people would want a ground-floor storage room/shed, but you could make the ground floor more usable.

ETA: I would say there is nothing wrong with three story townhomes. I would suggest they be a few feet wider (20' is reasonable, 24' would be great) and shallower. Less useless setbacks with narrower streets. They have to be marketable, but I would suggest including integrated ground floor storage at the rear (for bikes, etc.) and eliminate the garage/driveway and use group parking areas with dedicated spots as a bridge between now and when car ownership declines. That space can then be converted to open space or additional infill development.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Check out Churchill Meadows area of Mississauga, which was one of the latest areas to be filled in Mississauga. I think the Ninth Line lands are going to be developed with stacked townhouses. I've seen lots of it in Milton as well.

Quite a bit going on in Brooklin, Oshawa and North Whitby as well.

I'm sure the developers of Seaton and Veraine in Pickering will be looking to maximize density too in their subdivisions.

 

[LoMein]

...
Open Google streetview. I was referring to the townhouses beside the tower.

On Aerodrome Cres? Those were built in 2005...

 

[Undead]

Yeah it's stacked towns in the suburbs. My mistake on the Scenic tower. I thought it was part of the same project as the townhouses. But I think the point is made lol

 

[LoMein]

Like where? Lots of townhomes being built in new suburbs but I've never seen stacked townhomes. Most of the stacked townhomes are from old developments like Liberty Village.

Yeah it's stacked towns in the suburbs. I think the point is made lol

 

[LoMein]

I'm going to grab popcorn and maybe a plane ticket outta here when immigration hits 400k annually.