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Baby, we got a bubble!?

I think this could be a disaster if the government ends up doing this and enacting it at this time. Not because I don't think that it is a good idea, on the contrary I think it is but this is the wrong time to do it. Imagine what will happen to all of the people sitting on the fence that have let's say a 5-9% downpayment and are pondering getting into the real estate game. What's going to happen is a feeding frenzy, the likes we haven't seen before in the coming year. All those wanting to get in before the downpayment and amortization period regulation are going to "get in" before they are priced out of the market. This will in turn drive up prices even further, and perhaps prompt first time buyers (most vulnerable) to purchase at a higher price point when they otherwise wouldn't, and definitely affect them the most. For the seasoned investor this will not have a huge impact, but for the thousands and thousands of first time buyers....it definitely will. I say wait until the market cools and inventory goes up, basically a balance in the market place and then take the necessary steps for a long-term solution....not a short-term one with near sightedness that can inflate the so called "bubble" even further if there is one.

It works both ways... for buyers and sellers. If amortization is lowered and the minimum down payment is raised, then sellers will also rush to put their units on the market before the changes take effect in order to be able to sell the largest possible pool of buyers.
 
Currently, it is not. But by the end of 2010, it will certainly be way oversupplied. There have only been 3000 condo completions in the last 19 months in the Toronto Core, but over the next 17 months there will be 15 000! That is a 1000% increase....and it could get worse. If 30% of those condos are investor owned (a very conservative estimate) that's a lot of rental units, plus, many people moving into these condos are already renting condos - sometimes a couple - each renting a separate condo and then moving in together into another, thus opening up 2 condo's for the one built form.

Also, rents are currently 35% below where they should be to generate a decent (8%) return from an investment perspective. This leads me to believe that prices are overinflated.

I've put my money where my mouth is and sold my condo in May in order to lock in the equity. It's true that if I'd waited until now, I probably could have made another $10 000, but I was looking at a time horizon of needing the cash for another condo that will be completed by Nov 2010. At this point I expect there to be a correction in full swing. Especially amongst smaller units.

A couple other things to think about, and I apologize if anyone has read another post of mine that mentioned this. Until about 3 years ago, when you purchased a condo, you paid the market price for that unit as if you were buying it right then. You buy in August of 2006, you pay August 2006 market price - even if it won't be ready until 2011. You, not the builder, take the RE risk and hope that when it's finished you see an appreciation. The possibility for an upside is definitely there. Now, when you buy pre-construction, you are being asked to pay not what the unit is worth now, but a theoretical price that it will be worth when completed. The builders have removed any incentive for RE risk and taken all the presumptive appreciation for themselves. Costs for building are lower now than they were in 2006, but developers are charging 2x the price for the same stuff. New condo sales are still down 40% and while we hear of a recent surge, the fact is, very few properties have been launched over the past 12 months so the surge is happening in a much smaller market which might make it sound bigger.

I've totally flipped sides and while for the past 6 years I was big big big on condos and argued as much using the whole demographic change, the shift from actually wanting house to desiring a condo, immigation, etc. I think these new realities are not enough to counter the low interest rates/skyrocketing availability/high debt load problem, and we're in for a rude awakening that's going to start in about April.

It works both ways... for buyers and sellers. If amortization is lowered and the minimum down payment is raised, then sellers will also rush to put their units on the market before the changes take effect in order to be able to sell the largest possible pool of buyers.

nothing will happen for the next little while because the government doesn't want to have blood on their hands to over react because housing is so important to the economy. Most analyst expect (hope) that the market will cool down by mid next year as supply goes up (new properties and new listings) and supply goes down (fewer first time home buyers willing to buy left)
 
Rob McLister's take:

Many would argue there are more surgical alternatives than what Flaherty proposes. Instead of dropping an A-bomb on the whole market, Flaherty could instead make precision strikes where the threats are high. The finance department could require that lenders:

* Not extend 95% financing to borrowers with debt service ratios over the standard 40%.
* Increase minimum credit score requirements for 95% financing. (e.g. From the current 600, to 650 or 680)
* Tighten down payment guidelines in locations with overinflated home prices--using the Finance Department’s definition of “overinflatedâ€, or some other objective measure. (It’s important to remember that most local Canadian real estate markets are not materially overvalued.)
* Impose small but reasonable minimum net worth requirements 5/35 mortgages (those with only 5% down and 35-year amz).


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Maybe, but then again that might make things unnecessarily complicated. Making the requirement 7.5% across the board might be a lot easier, and potentially more equitable than say to "Tighten down payment guidelines in locations with overinflated home prices".
 
GTA winners and losers

November resale values gained an average of 13 per cent compared with a year ago, more than compensating for the 3.9 per cent median price drop in the fall of 2008, after the U.S. housing collapse shook stock markets around the world.

That 3.9 per cent is significant in a market accustomed to annual gains of 5 to 8 per cent over the past decade.

But that's only part of the story. A closer look at the numbers shows prices in many neighbourhoods – including Toronto's upscale Bridle Path, Rosedale and Forest Hill – are lagging their lofty 2007 heights, not to mention the gains experienced by their lower-scale neighbours.

The biggest two-year losses were in King and Uxbridge, where Nov. 2009 median home prices remain about 30 per cent below Nov. 2007, according to the Toronto Real Estate Board monthly reports.

In another 13 of the 86 areas tracked by the board, prices are still lower than in 2007, including places where auto-sector woes pulled prices down – Oshawa, home of General Motors of Canada, and Clarkson, adjacent to the Oakville Ford plant.


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ie. Despite the claims of a bubble, prices in many areas of the GTA are actually still lower than 2007.

GTA map

That said, other areas are indeed quite a bit higher.
 
"That 3.9 per cent is significant in a market accustomed to annual gains of 5 to 8 per cent over the past decade."

I have no certainty about bubbles bursting or potential price declines but this illustrates one point I believe is evident: Just as the previous decade saw abnormally high average annual price gains measured over the decade, our new decade will see abnormally low average annual price gains measured over the decade.
 
"That 3.9 per cent is significant in a market accustomed to annual gains of 5 to 8 per cent over the past decade."

I have no certainty about bubbles bursting or potential price declines but this illustrates one point I believe is evident: Just as the previous decade saw abnormally high average annual price gains measured over the decade, our new decade will see abnormally low average annual price gains measured over the decade.
Yes. But as you say, that is not the same thing as a bubble.

I too wouldn't be surprised to significant moderation of price gains or even some drops, but I am not convinced of a bubble popping.
 
No worries. December has seen typical seasonal cooling of real estate market. Expect more to follow as Winter 2010 continues...the real question: what happens May-June 2010?
I think we may (paradoxically to some people) get a bit of a surge in May-June 2010, or at least maintenance of relatively high pricing. Threats of interest rate hikes would be looming, and the smart ones would have gotten pre-approved already with the lower rates, perfect for that spring-early summer rush.

If we were to get more significant moderation of pricing, I wouldn't expect it until later.
 
I think we may (paradoxically to some people) get a bit of a surge in May-June 2010, or at least maintenance of relatively high pricing. Threats of interest rate hikes would be looming, and the smart ones would have gotten pre-approved already with the lower rates, perfect for that spring-early summer rush.

If we were to get more significant moderation of pricing, I wouldn't expect it until later.

I agree with EUG. However, I think if there is a surge in price, those people will regret the decision if they buy then. By way of interest. I purchased last year May2008 a small 2 bedroom condo to be built in 2013 for purposes as an investment to rent out. (I expect rents will be 20% lower then than now). However, 2 blocks away, it a relatively new building, a comparable condo just went for 20% more than I paid/foot (comparable units) and my unit will not be ready until 3 years going forward. Hence, I believe there is 20% room for a downward correction to occur. I hope I am wrong but it is interesting to me that prices are now higher again than new construction (at least in this case).

Also, people I speak to have said they are postponing `moving up`and making due with their present living conditions despite good jobs and `secure`positions. the meltdown in the stock market despite recent recovery somewhat and the absolute halt in the market from Oct 2008 to April 2009 has left them with the view that they want to be sure we are totally òut of the woods before they commit to a higher price home and they say they will not increase their debt loads as they are concerned with interest rate increases, not now but in 2-5 years from now when they would have to renegotiate a mortgage. That said, a lot can change to alter this. For eg., shorter amortization periods or more money down but this will initially hurt the market though I believe in the long run will be better for all concerned.
 
The reason I am interested in the decade average is that I'm all about long-term strategies. It is not really a strategic concern for me what the market is like 6 months from now. However, I would tend to agree with Eug that we could very well see another price surge in spring 2010. Infact look for it, because its absence would suggest greater downside potential later in the year.

I also find this statement by interested, interesting:

"Also, people I speak to have said they are postponing `moving up`and making due with their present living conditions despite good jobs and `secure`positions."

A lot of people made a lot of money in the last boom. Outside the price of their home the average Canadian was not one of these people. The average Canadian has very little savings, some credit card debt, a line of credit, can't comprehend the concept of 25% down, and has negligible retirement savings. To what extent do these people represent the average property buyer at present? How "secure" are these people's positions? Price decline if it ever does occur will create a serious negative feedback loop becaues their home is virtually the only financial resource available to Canadians. For this reason I seriously hope prices can maintain there present values.
 
Canadians better off than media projects

The average Canadian has very little savings, some credit card debt, a line of credit, can't comprehend the concept of 25% down, and has negligible retirement savings. To what extent do these people represent the average property buyer at present? How "secure" are these people's positions? Price decline if it ever does occur will create a serious negative feedback loop becaues their home is virtually the only financial resource available to Canadians. For this reason I seriously hope prices can maintain there present values.

What is the source of that observation?

http://www.caamp.org/meloncms/media/CAAMP Fall Survey 2009 Fact Sheet FINAL_2.pdf

Garth Turner of the Greater Fool fame is oft mentioning the highly leveraged and Real Estate Bubble that is bursting in Canadian housing market;

"Average amount of equity Canadians holding a mortgage have in their home is $142,000, representing 52 per cent of the value of their homes. Approximately one third of homeowners do not hold a mortgage and have an average $322,000 of equity in their homes. Overall, Canadian homeowners have 74 per cent equity in their homes."

What a vast difference to the Media reports of the over extended over financed Canadian Mortgage market. Last week I found a complete article on the collusion on the part of CMHC to induce borrowers to maintain and increase mortgage debt. The article went on to say that CMHC was causing the price increases because of the borrowing specials.

I guess if we read it enough ONLINE its the truth.

To the people preducting a burst bubble like a ZIP Popping??? My God, Inventory is an all time low.

Lets recap
You bought a unit with 20% down
You haven't move in yet
And you are legally obligated to close on a unit that has gone up in value by probably 20% (doubling your 5% actual cash investment by four or five times) since you purchased preconstruction 3 years ago.

You rent it till it saleable (registered) and you turn it for a profit (or you sell it and get your equity out) or keep it.

The American model of build it and somone will buy it is not the NORM in Canada. They have buildings with hydro being turned off for non payment. Building where the condo board is going bankrupt. I was reading in Miami there are buildings with less than 20% occupancy. Desperate Landlords? Do you see lowered rents in Toronto? Rent my condo at $ 500 per month please?

Is that what we see for Canada?

That is not happening in my City or My Country.
 

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