Automobile City

[suv]

Decent bus service already exists all over the city...running higher order transit lines out to random culs-de-sac in the hopes that residents will be tempted to take transit is not a viable option unless the houses on the culs-de-sac are, literally, razed and rebuilt with something denser. That, as we all know, is simply not going to happen.

Hipster Duck isn't suggesting we only permit development in that downtown block, just that we should funnel as much as possible to such a block, or to other nodes. You can claim that's not what people want, but, over the years, the wants of the home buying public have shown to be very malleable and highly susceptible to trends, advertising, propaganda, etc. It would be very difficult or outright impossible to suddenly cancel all new houses and only build apartment towers, but pretty much everything that you like about your house overlooking the Rouge Park can be had in a townhouse, or a stacked townhouse, or a condo with a large terrace.

If one takes an objective look at the economic transformation of the GTA, Mississauga, Brampton, York Region has blowed by the 416 in development growth. The population is mobile and we are nullifying our global competitiveness with gridlock.

I would suggest the regional transportation network is a bigger issue in addressing productivity and lifestyle issues. The traffic coming down the 400 from Barrie is insane, ditto the 404, ditto across 7, Steeles, etc.

The traffic patterns is speaking to people's and companies choices of where to locate. It would seem that transit solutions need to use the gridlock template. More jobs will emanante from the 905 than downtown in the forseeable future. It is what it is...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

suv: Do you really think the people you're arguing with support one new subway downtown and no other transit improvements?

 

[Glen]

So do you propose we concentrate transit expansion in the 905?

Yep.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

So do you propose we concentrate transit expansion in the 905?

Yep.

It's a good thing our subway and bus lines all run straight from the 416 into the 905. Oh...wait...

 

[Glen]

Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. How can 416ers get to these jobs in the 905 without expanding transit?

I don't suspect that the TTC is going to be expanding out side of Toronto. That is a job for other transit operators.

 

[suv]

suv: Do you really think the people you're arguing with support one new subway downtown and no other transit improvements?

That is an interesting take, and I am not being sarcastic. Thanks for the question.

Let me explain it this way...I have many clients throughout the GTA region, so I travel from Brantford to Oshawa to Barrie. So I get a non Toronto perspective. Most Torontonians view of Toronto is very much at odds with the way the rest of the region views Toronto.

To use hipster duck as an example, I suspect the view point posted about Toronto's growth versus the overwhelming evidence against the 'Toronto growth story' is very prevalent amongst the downtown/midtown crowd. There is reality, then there is the story told about Toronto and its growth, whereas growth is eminating at a startling pace everywhere but downtown/midtown Toronto (will soon have massive school closures).

My point is the fixation with the inner city is leading to a viewpoint that is erroneous in facts. And using erroneous facts as the driver of discussion. Look, I utilize downtown as much as anyone, but even as a 416 resident, I understand the regional needs. The regional transportation issue is constraining our economic growth which impacts personal and government revenue needed to make further choices...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I don't suspect that the TTC is going to be expanding out side of Toronto. That is a job for other transit operators.

Uh, it's one city. You'd prefer it if a TTC bus took you to Steeles and a YRT bus then picked you up and took you to Beaver Creek? That kind of fueding transit fiefdoms will guarantee that people continue to drive.

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that more people will take transit if there's good transit available. Far more transit rides can be generated this way than through moderate job growth (even though 9-5 commuters are the easiest market to serve with transit). Most TTC lines are overcrowded and this poor level of service alone justifies expansion.

 

[Panzerfaust]

When Toronto starts creating jobs, that is when it should start expanding transit. Until then there should be a moratorium on TTC expansion.

I mean for F's sake, Toronto has less jobs than a generation ago. More people from Toronto are working in the 905 than the opposite. With no viable public transit for them.

Hahahahahaha, are you joking? Seriously, because if you aren't, I will just be astounded. You are honestly saying that the 905 should be given excellent transit and Toronto left to rot? Since obviously people only use transit to get to work and all. Oh, and I'm sure every resident will be happy that they'll have to deal with crowded buses, streetcars, and subways for the rest of their lives while empty buses run in the 905.

Gentlemen, I think we've found someone who makes Dentrobate look like an amazing urban planner. Normally I'm not this blunt when it comes to saying someone has a dumb idea, but SERIOUSLY. I'm not against 905 transit expansion (I live in the 905, actually), but saying that all expansion in Toronto should be stopped? I'm sure you'll find a lot of support here, Glen.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That is an interesting take, and I am not being sarcastic. Thanks for the question.

Let me explain it this way...I have many clients throughout the GTA region, so I travel from Brantford to Oshawa to Barrie. So I get a non Toronto perspective. Most Torontonians view of Toronto is very much at odds with the way the rest of the region views Toronto.

To use hipster duck as an example, I suspect the view point posted about Toronto's growth versus the overwhelming evidence against the 'Toronto growth story' is very prevalent amongst the downtown/midtown crowd. There is reality, then there is the story told about Toronto and its growth, whereas growth is eminating at a startling pace everywhere but downtown/midtown Toronto (will soon have massive school closures).

My point is the fixation with the inner city is leading to a viewpoint that is erroneous in facts. And using erroneous facts as the driver of discussion. Look, I utilize downtown as much as anyone, but even as a 416 resident, I understand the regional needs. The regional transportation issue is constraining our economic growth which impacts personal and government revenue needed to make further choices...

In that case, you're more wrong about our position than you think we are about the GTA at large. I support huge amounts of suburban transit expansion, and I know Hipster Duck does, too, such as an extreme revamping of the GO network. To prevent endless future arguments, I suggest you glance at some other/older threads.

Milton and Brampton are fast growing right now but this growth will soon come to an abrupt end when the land runs out. All of these 'fast-growing' 905 areas will see massive school closures in 20 years, just as the outer 416 recently saw some. Hopefully, the 905 school boards are learning how to not overbuild during times of rapid growth (as the 6 borough boards and the MSSB did between the 50s and the 80s), but they still cannot prevent inevitable enrollment declines. Milton actually lost population between 1996 and 2001 because they weren't subdividing new land at that time.

 

[Hipster Duck]

To use hipster duck as an example, I suspect the view point posted about Toronto's growth versus the overwhelming evidence against the 'Toronto growth story' is very prevalent amongst the downtown/midtown crowd.

the GTHBA keeps excellent stats on new housing construction in the GTA. Unfortunately, I could not find their spreadsheet but you can pick up any copy of the Condo News and you will find a monthly report on what's being built where.

This Star report, linked from the GTHBA website, states that over 50% of all housing units constructed in the GTA are high-rise and 80% of those are built within the city of Toronto. This means that, at a minimum, 40% of all new housing units constructed in the GTA are condos in the city of Toronto. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of these can be found in just four nodes: downtown, NYCC, STC, and southern Etobicoke.

There is reality, then there is the story told about Toronto and its growth, whereas growth is eminating at a startling pace everywhere but downtown/midtown Toronto (will soon have massive school closures).

That's a demographic shift, not a population shift. A generation ago, 50% of Canadian households had children, now it's 25%. Not only are singles, childless couples and empty-nesters the faster growing demographics, but they are the groups that increasingly choose to settle in the inner city.

Let me explain it this way...I have many clients throughout the GTA region, so I travel from Brantford to Oshawa to Barrie. So I get a non Toronto perspective. Most Torontonians view of Toronto is very much at odds with the way the rest of the region views Toronto. ...My point is the fixation with the inner city is leading to a viewpoint that is erroneous in facts. And using erroneous facts as the driver of discussion.

You seem to be relying on anecdotal evidence, not facts. Of course 300 houses being framed outside of Bolton looks more impressive than a condo tower downtown with 300 units.

 

[suv]

the GTHBA keeps excellent stats on new housing construction in the GTA. Unfortunately, I could not find their spreadsheet but you can pick up any copy of the Condo News and you will find a monthly report on what's being built where.

This Star report, linked from the GTHBA website, states that over 50% of all housing units constructed in the GTA are high-rise and 80% of those are built within the city of Toronto. This means that, at a minimum, 40% of all new housing units constructed in the GTA are condos in the city of Toronto. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of these can be found in just four nodes: downtown, NYCC, STC, and southern Etobicoke.

That's a demographic shift, not a population shift. A generation ago, 50% of Canadian households had children, now it's 25%. Not only are singles, childless couples and empty-nesters the faster growing demographics, but they are the groups that increasingly choose to settle in the inner city.

You seem to be relying on anecdotal evidence, not facts. Of course 300 houses being framed outside of Bolton looks more impressive than a condo tower downtown with 300 units.

I'd actually wager its three nodes in the city, and downtown ain't one of 'em.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/economy/demographics/census/cenhi06-3.pdf

Per the above, Toronto grew by 0.9%. Toronto ranks ninth in growth rate in the GTA.
From wiki.....
In 2001, Scarborough's population was 593,297, with a density of 3,161 square kilometres (1,220 sq mi). A study based on census data between 1996 and 2001 shows that Scarborough's growth rate was more than 6%, the highest growth in Toronto. Its population is second to North York, but if this trend continues it should be the most populated district in Toronto by 2010.[20]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarborough,_Ontario#Demographics

Much of Toronto's growth is coming from Scarboough and North York, not downtown. While these two areas are contributing to the growth, this still pales beyond much of the GTA where the population is surging as compared to Toronto. Extract Scarborough, North York, and Etobicoke from the equation and the population in Toronto has not grown significantly. How then do we move ALL the people.

Using houselholds as opposed to population growth is disingenuous. Public transportation moves people, not houses or households....regardless more households have grown much more in the gta than toronto...

 

[suv]

In that case, you're more wrong about our position than you think we are about the GTA at large. I support huge amounts of suburban transit expansion, and I know Hipster Duck does, too, such as an extreme revamping of the GO network. To prevent endless future arguments, I suggest you glance at some other/older threads.

Milton actually lost population between 1996 and 2001 because they weren't subdividing new land at that time.

Milton had the highest growth rate (71.4%), followed by
Brampton (33.3%) and Vaughan (31.2%).

The above came from http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/economy/demographics/census/cenhi06-3.pdf

Look, I'm sure we probably agree more than we realize. But these cited references most certainly refute allegations of growth and population expansion.

 

[Glen]

Uh, it's one city. You'd prefer it if a TTC bus took you to Steeles and a YRT bus then picked you up and took you to Beaver Creek? That kind of fueding transit fiefdoms will guarantee that people continue to drive.

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that more people will take transit if there's good transit available. Far more transit rides can be generated this way than through moderate job growth (even though 9-5 commuters are the easiest market to serve with transit). Most TTC lines are overcrowded and this poor level of service alone justifies expansion.

The fiefdoms are at odds now. I do believe that the province should take over the TTC and all GTA transit operators.


I am not conveniently missing anything. Building LRT over bus routes does not increase ridership. What I am suggesting is that if you want to service work commuters you have to get them to their work. That increasingly means in the 905. So as long as Toronto continues to stagnate in job creation why expand transit in the 416 only?

 

[Glen]

Hahahahahaha, are you joking? Seriously, because if you aren't, I will just be astounded. You are honestly saying that the 905 should be given excellent transit and Toronto left to rot? Since obviously people only use transit to get to work and all. Oh, and I'm sure every resident will be happy that they'll have to deal with crowded buses, streetcars, and subways for the rest of their lives while empty buses run in the 905.

Gentlemen, I think we've found someone who makes Dentrobate look like an amazing urban planner. Normally I'm not this blunt when it comes to saying someone has a dumb idea, but SERIOUSLY. I'm not against 905 transit expansion (I live in the 905, actually), but saying that all expansion in Toronto should be stopped? I'm sure you'll find a lot of support here, Glen.

Since you seem to missing the point let me ask the following. If Toronto was to expand transit service in order to serve commuters where should it go, in circles?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If one finds it too difficult to track down the stats, one shouldn't speak of them. Here is the data by Statscan of the GTA on the population growth by Census Tracts between 2001 and 2006:

http://geodepot.statcan.ca/Diss2006/Maps/ThematicMaps/CMA_CT_Maps/English/Toronto_PopDwell_Ec-1.pdf
http://geodepot.statcan.ca/Diss2006/Maps/ThematicMaps/CMA_CT_Maps/English/Toronto_PopDwell_Ec-2.pdf

You'll notice that the population growth in the City of Toronto occurred along the Yonge corridor (particularly downtown and NCC), as well as pockets of Scarborough and Etobicoke. The decline in population happened either in areas experience gentrification (e.g. Parkdale, Riverdale) as well as the inner suburbs. Compare and contrast the pattern in the burbs - growth occurred mainly in greenfield areas.

Using houselholds as opposed to population growth is disingenuous. Public transportation moves people, not houses or households....regardless more households have grown much more in the gta than toronto...

That's the silliest argument ever - public transportation moves the most people where there are high densities - not necessarily where there is the largest population growth due to some accident in municipal boundaries.

AoD