Atheists hope (don't pray) to bring ads to Toronto (G&M)

[kEiThZ]

Since when did the concept of "God" become exclusive to Christians? Talk about hubris. You're way off base with your claims of these people only targeting Christians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Secular_Alliance


Why would the Toronto Secular Alliance be putting up billboards in these cities?

The TSA campaign is part of a larger global effort. This is merely its local manifestation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_bus

This is completely false. What the heck else do they equate him with?

Of course they do. That's like saying the French don't equate cities with villes. They're the same thing, just different languages. Christians and Muslims worship the same god.

It's hard to explain without the cultural context. The average muslim does not read the english word 'God' and think of his/her deity. To them that's 'Allah'. Yes, they understand that it's all one and the same being, but it's not the same to them. And growing up in the Middle East, I can tell you that muslims certainly perceive a difference in the word. Hence, a billboard against 'God' is not nearly as disconcerting to them as one about 'Allah'. Put out a bus ad against Allah and you'll quickly see the difference..... Likewsie, to be an equal opportunity atheist I'd suggest ads against Yahweh, Brahma, etc.

 

[CDL.TO]

Al Einstein believed that there had to be something/one responsible(dare i say God) given the 'harmonious perfection' in which the universe -and laws of physics operate. The more he understood , the more he believed.
Silly physicist.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein, 1954)

My favourite Einstein religion quote:
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." (Albert Einstein)

 

[MisterF]

It's hard to explain without the cultural context. The average muslim does not read the english word 'God' and think of his/her deity. To them that's 'Allah'. Yes, they understand that it's all one and the same being, but it's not the same to them. And growing up in the Middle East, I can tell you that muslims certainly perceive a difference in the word. Hence, a billboard against 'God' is not nearly as disconcerting to them as one about 'Allah'. Put out a bus ad against Allah and you'll quickly see the difference..... Likewsie, to be an equal opportunity atheist I'd suggest ads against Yahweh, Brahma, etc.

That's because the average Muslim doesn't speak English. English speaking Muslims, especially those born in Canada, refer to their deity as God more often than Allah. At least the ones I've met.

It's a moot point though. Other religions aren't relevant to this discussion. Are you saying the TSA should run ads saying "there's probably no Hades" or "there's probably no Adekagagwaa"? Of course not. Christianity is the dominant religion here so that would make no sense. Sounds to me like saying the ads should be "equal opportunity" is nothing more than attempt to dilute the message - it's a red herring.

 

[theowne]

Al Einstein believed that there had to be something/one responsible(dare i say God) given the 'harmonious perfection' in which the universe -and laws of physics operate. The more he understood , the more he believed.
Silly physicist.

And I heard Einstein failed grade 3 math as well.

(Hint. Both of these are lies.)

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

(i'l keep this simple, considering some of the audience)

Agnosticism i accept/undestand -they dont know, they're not sure.

Atheism seems silly. Basically, they think (Christians, etc.) are foolish for believing in an old guy,beard, robe,sandles, the deep voice, bunch of rules, up in the heavens... on(blind)faith -no proof. Fine.

But how then, would the atheist prove nonexistence of a God? Have they looked everywhere? Understand everything? "Like the ant high atop the ant hill deep in the jungle, looking all around..."
Untenable position really.

actually, atheism is not silly. you don't have to believe in anything there is no proof for. agnosticism involves more things as it has some statements.

an atheist doesn't have to prove the nonexistence of god. you can't prove the nonexistence of something. in order to prove the nonexistence of something you'd have to observe everything, all at once, forever. i can't disprove god just like how you can't disprove that god is really satan. it could be true that god is satan. god can suffer from multiple personality disorder. when there are rainbows, maybe he's being gay. when there are wars, maybe he's being the devil. when prayers go unanswered, maybe he's being lazy, etc. prove me wrong? you can't!

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

"there's probably no deity. now stop worrying an enjoy your life."


i wonder how many people would understand that.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein, 1954)

My favourite Einstein religion quote:
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." (Albert Einstein)

not related to einstein because of the era he live in but i wonder how many atheists throughout the ages kept their atheism private for fear of either being banished from their community or fear of being killed by religious authorities or a religious population.

when a person from a specific era, an era where non believers could be killed, states a belief in god, can we really take the claim seriously? to me it would seem more like a forced confession.


of course i'd say i believed in god if i saw what they did to those that answered that question another way.

and it's not just the fear of death that can make someone lie about their beliefs. there's the fear of losing your family and the respect of the members in your community. you could be left without friends. i've heard of some cases like this in the bible belt.

 

[afransen]

It's hard to explain without the cultural context. The average muslim does not read the english word 'God' and think of his/her deity. To them that's 'Allah'. Yes, they understand that it's all one and the same being, but it's not the same to them. And growing up in the Middle East, I can tell you that muslims certainly perceive a difference in the word. Hence, a billboard against 'God' is not nearly as disconcerting to them as one about 'Allah'. Put out a bus ad against Allah and you'll quickly see the difference..... Likewsie, to be an equal opportunity atheist I'd suggest ads against Yahweh, Brahma, etc.

To be impolite, I expect you'd see some firebombed buses, riots, etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

That's because the average Muslim doesn't speak English. English speaking Muslims, especially those born in Canada, refer to their deity as God more often than Allah. At least the ones I've met.

As a person of South Asian descent and one who grew up in the Middle East with quite a few Muslim friends I will assure that there is a difference in perception with the English words both over there and here. Of course, we are both entitled to our opinion on the matter.

It's a moot point though. Other religions aren't relevant to this discussion. Are you saying the TSA should run ads saying "there's probably no Hades" or "there's probably no Adekagagwaa"? Of course not. Christianity is the dominant religion here so that would make no sense. Sounds to me like saying the ads should be "equal opportunity" is nothing more than attempt to dilute the message - it's a red herring.

If the attitude of the campaigners is as you say, then Christianity is being targeted, specifically because it is the dominant religion. So how is that not an attack on a specific faith? Does it make it fair just because it's the dominant faith? If that's the argument than why didn't the rest of the global campaigners put signs up in Mecca, and Delhi? They did it in Italy. Why the reluctance to target other faiths? Are the campaigners afraid of appearing non-PC? I don't consider it a red herring. I consider it quite relevant. Given Toronto's multi-cultural nature surely there are enough Muslims and Hindus around to more warrant culturally/religiously relevant ads at least in the neighbourhoods where they live. It's clear that this is a campaign that targets the Christian faith directly with other religions merely taken on as collateral damage.

All that being said, I do understand the genus of the campaign and I have to say I was disgusted by the original 'Christian' ads in the UK that prompted this campaign. In that context, these ads seemed a fair response. However, without that context, these ads would seem to me to be unnecessarily inflammatory.

 

[theman23]

As a person of South Asian descent and one who grew up in the Middle East with quite a few Muslim friends I will assure that there is a difference in perception with the English words both over there and here. Of course, we are both entitled to our opinion on the matter.

You aren't the only one with signicant history in the Islamic world. At most, I'm willing to concede that there might be a tendency to use the world Allah, out of habit or due to the level of respect afforded to the Arabic language in Islamic cultures. But Allah is still simply another word/name for a god, as Vishnu is a god for the Hindus or Yahweh is a god for the Jews. Christianity does not have exclusive domain over the word god; if anything, by choosing to use the word god, it seems to me that theses advertisements were specifically designed to not single out any one particular religion.

If the attitude of the campaigners is as you say, then Christianity is being targeted, specifically because it is the dominant religion. So how is that not an attack on a specific faith? Does it make it fair just because it's the dominant faith? If that's the argument than why didn't the rest of the global campaigners put signs up in Mecca, and Delhi?

Do you honestly think that expecting ads in Mecca or Delhi is reasonable? There is a distinct line between being non-PC and plain stupid.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

the ads probably wouldn't be allowed in saudi arabia. they could be punishable by death i think.

kEiThZ, remember these ads weren't started to convert anyone. that is not their purpose. the ads were launched as a response to religious ads and to assure atheists that they aren't alone.

also, i keep hearing that because these are ads, that atheism is trying to be sold. i don't think this is true at all. this is a reductio ad media type fallacy. it's like saying that since nazis used posters to spread nazi propaganda, therefore anyone that puts anything on a poster is spreading nazi propaganda. it's absurd. just because companies use advertising surfaces to sell something, not everyone that uses those surfaces is trying to sell something.

ads don't have to sell anything. ad space is a surface which you can put something on. if i were to run an ad with a bunch of scribbles on it, what would i be selling? if i were to run an ad with the word "because". what am i selling? ad space is just a place where you can pay money to put something on. you don't have to sell anything.

 

[Hydrogen]

Al Einstein believed that there had to be something/one responsible(dare i say God) given the 'harmonious perfection' in which the universe -and laws of physics operate. The more he understood , the more he believed.
Silly physicist.

Actually, Einstein "believed" in the laws of nature - such as those of physics. He was hardly a believer of religious faith or god in the conventional sense. If anything, he was making reference to the fact that the universe appears rational and comprehensible.

 

[Hydrogen]

If the attitude of the campaigners is as you say, then Christianity is being targeted, specifically because it is the dominant religion. So how is that not an attack on a specific faith? Does it make it fair just because it's the dominant faith? If that's the argument than why didn't the rest of the global campaigners put signs up in Mecca, and Delhi? They did it in Italy. Why the reluctance to target other faiths? Are the campaigners afraid of appearing non-PC? I don't consider it a red herring. I consider it quite relevant. Given Toronto's multi-cultural nature surely there are enough Muslims and Hindus around to more warrant culturally/religiously relevant ads at least in the neighbourhoods where they live. It's clear that this is a campaign that targets the Christian faith directly with other religions merely taken on as collateral damage.

Are you suggesting that the overall membership of the Muslim and Hindu communities of Toronto are not sophisticated enough to get the gist of these ads?

The British ad illustrated earlier stated that non-believers are "fools." In fact, the bible contains a number of threats to non-believers courtesy of Christians who believe that they are speaking for god (still without any proof whatsoever). There has been a long history of distrust and condemnation by Christians against atheists and agnostics.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

There has been a long history of distrust and condemnation by Christians against atheists and agnostics.

and even against other people of other religions or christian denominations that are different from which ever the condemning and distrusting christian belongs to.

 

[MisterF]

As a person of South Asian descent and one who grew up in the Middle East with quite a few Muslim friends I will assure that there is a difference in perception with the English words both over there and here. Of course, we are both entitled to our opinion on the matter.

'Allah is the standard Arabic word for God. While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God". The term was also used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia.'

^That's from Wikipedia, but the sources include Encyclopaedia Britannica and the Encyclopedia of the Modern Middle East and North Africa. There are many English translations of the Qur'an that use the word God instead of Allah.

If oversensitive Christians are offended by the ads then oversensitive Muslims are too. Do you think that the people who made the ads think there's no Christian God but Allah probably exists? Do you think that Muslims would agree with the ad because it doesn't use the word Allah?

Christianity does not have exclusive domain over the word god; if anything, by choosing to use the word god, it seems to me that theses advertisements were specifically designed to not single out any one particular religion.

Exactly. God is a pretty generic word that can be used to describe any deity. Especially in the context of this ad.

Of course, if the ad had said something like "Jesus was probably not the son of God", it would still be perfectly valid because it would be addressing the beliefs of the vast majority of the people who would see it.