Atheists hope (don't pray) to bring ads to Toronto (G&M)

[Hydrogen]

To use an example cited earlier in this thread, Soren Kierkegaard examines the authenticity of faith in the story of Abraham and Isaac and comes to the conclusion that what separates Abraham from murder is his duty to God; that to believe in faith is irrational and that faith is founded in absurdity. Faith, for Kierkegaard, is an expression beyond the limits of what can be considered thought and cannot be observed or measured from any systematic point of view.

If I recall correctly, it was an angel that commanded Abraham to stop, not god. If Abe was truly tied to his faith, he wouldn't have listened to a mere angel.

A nice story (well, not really), but it is a story. The idea that god suggested murder and then pulls back on that command suggests a hesitant god (not to mention a little mean-spirited).

More to the point, faith - as you set it up here - is not much different from fantasy or day dreams. People have been known to have fantasies of themselves that exceed the reality they otherwise inhabit. Does that suggest that they have special knowledge, or an imagination?

Faith is thought. It's all in one's head - unless one can show existence for trans-thought of some kind.

We can put science to the same testing and see that it, too, comes off the rails: how is intelligence a measurable property of brain matter? What is the intrinsic value of a sunset? And how would scientific discovery, which is itself value-laden and in search of measurable phenomena in a world where a lot may escape detection, be an appropriate means to determine the existence of gods?

The word "intelligence" has many different usages. Attempts to measure intelligence in a supposed scientific manner has a long history of abuse and criticism. Intelligence quotients are largely meaningless, but do reflect an attempt to explore and define what intelligence (as a capacity) is, and how to measure it. People do science, and people are by no means perfect.

By the "intrinsic" value of a sunset, I think you are asking a question of aesthetics and not necessarily science. However, the intrinsic value of the sun on earth should be fairly obvious - no sun, no life. I can still recall the thrill I had when learning about nucleosynthesis. I've never looked at a sunset quite the same way again. It's added an extra appreciation to the beauty of the event. That experience has been informed by science.

Interestingly, "sun set" is a long and harmless hold-over of a geocentric belief of the universe. The sun does not set; the earth rotates as it orbits around the sun. Moreover, the sun used to be worshipped as a god by some people. Given its importance to life on earth, it's almost an actual contender.

There are a number of interesting studies that have examined the mind and the relationship to qualities such as beauty. However I don't have a background in these subjects to explain them adequately. Nevertheless, would it be so strange that a mind as adaptive as the human mind, and so capable of making connections between the warmth and importance of the sun - and the (apparent) cycles of rising and setting - could experience emotions related to that daily happening?

As for the last part, how would something so completely value-laden as a search for gods be scientific? Gods are a conclusion. To look for them as already defined gods, you would first have to know something about them, some of their qualities, location and so on. While many people have reported a belief in god, they have offered up very little in the way of phenomena to search for. The belief is nothing more than a highly generalized statement shared by many individuals - often taught to them from an early age. Science starts with questions, but they must be scientific questions. People professing a belief in a god suggest they know something; they should be offering up that knowledge or evidence for testing or examination.

Some people I know who believe in a divine Creator would go so far as to say that the Bible and other sacred texts hang around their necks like a millstone.

But what gives these people special knowledge to know of a divine creator? In the absence of any explanation otherwise for the existence of the universe, why do people feel it's suddenly okay to just invent a cause?

My final word on the matter: the belief in God that I could reconcile with would be the same as that of Isaac Newton. If He exists (and I guess we'll never know, through science or otherwise), then he was just a perfect being who created a perfect universe to run and then left it at that. I believe in a deterministic universe and to address the question posed by Archibald MacLeish in J.B., I think that the world we live in represents a Panglossian ideal.

Again, the stance you propose would presume a prior knowledge of god, plus knowledge of those actions.

 

[lordmandeep]

Interesting read,


very few people know Hurricanes are nature's natural way of transferring heat from the Oceans to land.

As for other areas at the frontier of science, how about the mind? What is consciousness? That remains one of the major questions open to research. You might find speculation about afterlife interesting, how about the very crux of this life? We are all conscious, but we are not sure what that consciousness actually is or how it is formed

You know when they said that when your facing a near death experience that your life flashes in front of you and see a white light.
I was a tiny bit dissapointed to learn that is all in your own mind.

This forum, just off of the top of my head. Me and transportfan seem to be the only religious people here, and we've been called just on this thread:
-fundies
-hypocrites
-dofus
-liars
-weird
-arrogant
-no grasp on reality
-without free-thought

not to mention that we've been labeled with all sorts of stereotypes.

Only the very religious are like that.


To tell you the truth many people today that believe in a GOD, believe the world was created naturally, the way science says. However in the greater questions about the afterlife and our point of existence. Until we know for sure, people will believe in some supernatural force.
Like I remember an atheist said that nothing happens after you die. You just die!!! However whats the difference in saying that then saying something does happen. Both ways, where not sure.


Also, I must admit that the only peace I got every week is when I visit the local temple. I go there not out of religious devotion but find it to be a peaceful place and where I do not have to worry about anything outside of those walls while I am there.

 

[Mot]

This forum, just off of the top of my head. Me and transportfan seem to be the only religious people here, and we've been called just on this thread:
-fundies
-hypocrites
-dofus
-liars
-weird
-arrogant
-no grasp on reality
-without free-thought

not to mention that we've been labeled with all sorts of stereotypes.

Urbanboom,
Those names were from a spat between you and one person on this forum. Let's be fair. I personally called you an exception to most Christians I have encountered and it was meant as a compliment.

Hydrogen, I am very impressed. Thanks for sharing so many great points.

 

[urbanboom]

Urbanboom,
Those names were from a spat between you and one person on this forum. Let's be fair. I personally called you an exception to most Christians I have encountered and it was meant as a compliment.

Prometheus asked how it was even possible that religious people can be attacked/shamed. I was just pointing our some examples just on this thread. That being said, there a many articulate people who respectfully disagree, such as yourself. I also seem to recall Prometheus stating that we wouldn't vote for someone based on their religious beliefs, which I think is horrible. I'm just saying that it exists.

 

[discreet]

In reading this thread, I've noticed that the pro religion people tend to be very condescending in their responses, as if they're 'in the know'....and the rest are juast peasants. The complaints of persecution by the non-religious are a little silly too...considering the history of Christianity.
Promethius has been very civil and has brought a lot of good information to the debate, unfortunately, it is simply dismissed by some, while they continue to parrot "what god said".
Good thread!

 

[discreet]

very few people know Hurricanes are nature's natural way of transferring heat from the Oceans to land.

Weather is natures attempt to reach equilibrium. Many people know this...you might want to refrain from makng general sweeping statements.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Prometheus asked how it was even possible that religious people can be attacked/shamed. I was just pointing our some examples just on this thread. That being said, there a many articulate people who respectfully disagree, such as yourself. I also seem to recall Prometheus stating that we wouldn't vote for someone based on their religious beliefs, which I think is horrible. I'm just saying that it exists.

i said:

ashamed of what??? religion is injected almost anywhere you can look in our society. you guys have parades, the national anthem, funding for a religious school system, holidays, chapels in hospitals, etc. where is this shame religious people have in our society?

ok, obviously anyone can say anything to you or someone else to make you or the other person feel ashamed or hurt. but do you think for the most part, are the believers living in shame or the nonbelievers?


why do you think it is horrible that i wouldn't vote for someone based on their religious beliefs? is it also horrible that i wouldn't vote for someone simply because they are the same ethnicity as me?


i'm not inspired to vote for someone because of their religious beliefs. i'd vote for obama if i could and he has religious beliefs. he also is a very smart guy and i like alot of his policies. i wouldn't vote for people like sarah palin specifically because of her religious beliefs though. most of her policies would be faith based and would take away the rights of alot of people. i wouldn't vote for someone who would change public policy to be in accordance with their personal religious convictions. what's wrong with that? i don't think religious convictions qualify who would be a good and effective leader.

if i wouldn't vote for somebody like fred phelps, that makes me a bigot? or it's horrible, like you say?

if somebody's religious convictions are going to get in the way in how they conduct business & decide public policy , i wouldn't vote for them. if somebody is trying to get elected only on their religious convictions, i wouldn't vote for them.

 

[Hydrogen]

Weather is natures attempt to reach equilibrium. Many people know this...you might want to refrain from makng general sweeping statements.

You would be surprised about how little some people understand weather and climate.


But since lormandeep brought up hurricanes, it's worth remembering that many cultures deified these storms. They believed them to be gods.

The origins of the word "hurricane" comes from the natives of the Caribbean, many of whom had a god associated with these cyclonic storms that are found in the region. For example, the Tainos people told Spanish explorers of Jurakan (or Huracan, Hunraken), the fearful and jealous god of destruction. The Tainos were terrified of this god, and during a storm, they would beat drums and engage in various rituals in an attempt to drive it away.

Interestingly, there is some evidence to suggest that while these people were terrified of their capricious god, they experienced enough hurricanes to begin making some observations about them. The early inhabitants of what is today Cuba left behind carvings depicting a godhead with no torso, but with two distinctive arms spiralling out from the sides. Some anthropologists suggest that such depictions represent some observational knowledge of the vortical nature of these storms.


Today, these "gods" are no longer deities for most people, but are instead understood to be the product of open thermodynamic systems where temperature and pressure gradients are being degraded. Nevertheless, this scientific understanding has not stopped some people from invoking god by suggesting hurricanes are a form of punishment dispensed by (a loving?) god.

 

[discreet]

Nevertheless, this scientific understanding has not stopped some people from invoking god by suggesting hurricanes are a form of punishment dispensed by (a loving?) god.

That's unfortunate, willful ignorance is not something I respect.

 

[Hipster Duck]

ashamed of what??? religion is injected almost anywhere you can look in our society. you guys have parades, the national anthem, funding for a religious school system, holidays, chapels in hospitals, etc. where is this shame religious people have in our society?

This is unrelated to the larger argument that Hydrogen and I have been having about divine creation, but I would definitely come on the side of religion on this point.

For better or worse, Judeo Christian values are the moral and cultural underpinning of our Western society. You can't simply toss it out like bathwater. Religious groups also were in the practice of spreading charity and compassion long before non-secular groups, and it wasn't necessarily out of self-interest. If religious iconography tends to pop up in hospitals or youth outreach centres or other places that tend to the sick and the marginalized, it's probably not by accident.

Incidentally, the chapels in hospitals are provided for people of faith to pray before they or their loved ones go through a potential life and death operation. If they wish, atheists can engage in self-contemplation in the hallway or in the Tim Hortons or anywhere else. This is quite a different scenario from not being admitted to a hospital on religious grounds.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Today, these "gods" are no longer deities for most people, but are instead understood to be the product of open thermodynamic systems where temperature and pressure gradients are being degraded. Nevertheless, this scientific understanding has not stopped some people from invoking god by suggesting hurricanes are a form of punishment dispensed by (a loving?) god.

didn't pat robertson say that katrina was god's wrath on new orleans because they were going to have a gay parade or festival? as it turned out, the part of the city that was going to be gay was the part with the least damage and the part with the poorest people, most of whom were probably christian suffered the worst.

does this mean god prefers gay people? or that hurricanes are natural phenomena that don't discriminate?


you'd be surprised at how many christian folk believed that the boxing day tsunami was god (the one that represents all that is god) punishing or not protecting the non-christians. hey, it happened a day after christmas, it must have been god. but wait, i thought we didn't know which day jesus' birthday was. but i guess it doesn't matter. all that mattered was the people believed that his birthday was on the 25th.


remember when sewage from world youth day backed up into the furniture store and ruined everything? IIRC, didn't the bearded furniture man have some opposition to WYD? was this god's punishment for his opposition? or did someone let clothing get into the sewage system causing a clog and then a backup? well, they always taught us in school that god heals us by working through doctors, that he works his miracles through people. maybe god was working through those doing the sewage disposal? these are all questions you ask yourself when you're devoutly religious and in love with a guy but at the same time scared to hell of him.

 

[discreet]

This is quite a different scenario from not being admitted to a hospital on religious grounds.

Why is it so important for the admissions people at St Michaels hospital to know your sexual orientation? They're a catholic hospital, we know what their views on gays are.

 

[urbanboom]

Why is it so important for the admissions people at St Michaels hospital to know your sexual orientation? They're a catholic hospital, we know what their views on gays are.

I see digi has rejoined under a new name. You weren't being very "discreet", were you?

 

[Hipster Duck]

Discreet,

Were you not admitted as a result? I know gay people who have been admitted to hospitals with names like St. Mary's and St. Joseph's and even the very St. Michael's (presumably the one at Queen & Victoria?) that you talk about.

In any case, if the question offended you why didn't you tell them that you were not going to answer? If I remember back to my STD test (tee hee) at the Men's Hassle Free clinic on Gerrard, sexual orientation was a question on the patient profile sheet I had to fill out, too, and they're probably the most gay and transgendered-friendly clinic in this extremely tolerant city of ours.

 

[discreet]

Were you not admitted as a result?

Not me, someone I was with.

In any case, if the question offended you why didn't you tell them that you were not going to answer?

He didn't, so they didn't admit him.
Anyway, it was just a question, it's off topic.