Alternatives to Transit City, the Spadina Extension, Yonge Extension, Etc.

[nfitz]

I don't know why they don't move this up instead of the DRL. It's cheaper and faster to setup and will allow the Yonge extension to proceed unhindered. The DRL could then be built in due time.

It wouldn't relieve Yonge-Bloor. Yonge-Bloor is at capacity right now; I'm not sure that it can handle the increased load from Eglinton LRT and growth on Shepherd. The only way it could handle the Yonge extension, is if no one used the Yonge Extension ... but that would mean we don't need the Yonge Extension ... so if we need the Yonge Extension after a RER-like GO line is in place, then we need the DRL - or a $billion rebuild of Yonge-Bloor.

 

[Anth]

Good luck getting the TTC to go with that... The odds are that the Leafs will win the cup before the TTC agrees to merge with anyone (and we all know what those odds are, haha).

Who said the TTC has to agree? The province has the power to do what it wishes.

Merging all the agencies is likely the only real long-term solution.

 

[Rainforest]

On double-tracking and electrifying, surely I would have thought that simply not having to tunnel, not having to expropriate (much) land, and being able to build within the existing ROW would result in significant savings.

I'm not sure it's an either-or -- but, still, wouldn't the main difference be that DRL will have to do all those things, plus tunnel and expropriate through a very expensive land base?

That's true; but on the other hand, DRL (phase 1 which is really needed to relieve Yonge) would be much shorter. DRL from downtown to Yonge / Eglinton would be about 8 km.

In contrast, very frequent service on RH GO line, and all associated enhancements, would be needed at least up to Finch (16 km), preferably up to RH Centre (23 km).

And even then, RH GO line won't divert passengers transferring from Danforth subway. It can divert a large number of passengers from the north-east and some from RHC, but is it enough? Yonge will still have to handle all of its existing catchment area, almost all transferrees from Danforth, some from Thornhill, some from the west, and any resulting from increased density at the existing nodes.

 

[xtremesniper]

Who said the TTC has to agree? The province has the power to do what it wishes.

Merging all the agencies is likely the only real long-term solution.

I don't know... I rather like how YRT actually manages to get things done quicker than the TTC's indecisive board of politicians does. I kind of want to keep it that way with closer operating cooperation, at least for the time being. If the TTC and YRT merge (for example), I think we'd immediately notice the 905 would be forgotten. Currently, we have YRT pushing pretty hard to get various projects underway across the region.

 

[Disparishun]

That's true; but on the other hand, DRL (phase 1 which is really needed to relieve Yonge) would be much shorter. DRL from downtown to Yonge / Eglinton would be about 8 km.

In contrast, very frequent service on RH GO line, and all associated enhancements, would be needed at least up to Finch (16 km), preferably up to RH Centre (23 km).

Good points. I am having a hard time putting them in context, though.

My intuition was that tunnelling underneath downtown and expropriating land within it is terrifically expensive, to the point that doing so over an 8 km would make a very substantial difference. It sounds like you're saying that electrification and double tracking would be equally great -- that 2x or 3x the double electric tracking would offset the extra physical costs.

Is that right?

And even then, RH GO line won't divert passengers transferring from Danforth subway. It can divert a large number of passengers from the north-east and some from RHC, but is it enough? Yonge will still have to handle all of its existing catchment area, almost all transferrees from Danforth, some from Thornhill, some from the west, and any resulting from increased density at the existing nodes.

Right. My sense is that a substantial part of the Yonge line's Eglinton-and-north ridership -- particularly existing and future ridership on the "put them in cars, we want seats" portions of the line -- are coming from the east, and that this will only increase, perhaps as much as any other traffic source.

I am thinking of all the busy bus lines, stubway, and future LRTs running west to east, mostly to take people to the subway. And I am thinking of all the new development centred precisely around those areas -- the Sheppard corridor, obviously, but everything else that seems to be going on in that part of the city, too.

As an express line stopping at major concessions (between Eglinton and Union, would St. Clair work? and what between Bloor and Union -- a DRL linkage?) I would think most would opt for this mode.

I agree that it will certainly not relieve any of the Danforth traffic. But I thought part of the goal was to relieve the congested north end of the line in order to meet demand with transit, not cars, while still enabling those south of Eglinton to, well, get seats.

 

[Rainforest]

Good points. I am having a hard time putting them in context, though.

My intuition was that tunnelling underneath downtown and expropriating land within it is terrifically expensive, to the point that doing so over an 8 km would make a very substantial difference. It sounds like you're saying that electrification and double tracking would be equally great -- that 2x or 3x the double electric tracking would offset the extra physical costs.

Honestly I do not know how much the required GO line enhancements will cost per km. My concern is that nobody has proposed any estimates, even though RH Regional Express has been under discussion for quite a while.

Regarding DRL, at least the per km cost of Sheppard and of Spadina extension can be used for estimates.

As an express line stopping at major concessions (between Eglinton and Union, would St. Clair work? and what between Bloor and Union -- a DRL linkage?) I would think most would opt for this mode.

St Clair does not cross the RH line: it terminates just east of Mt Pleasant Road and starts again well east of DVP. Could concider a stop at Leaside Bridge: bus connections to Overlea and Laird.

A stop south of Bloor (Dundas or Queen) may be considered, but it will be for trips between the north and the south-east, not a downtown-relief stop. Passengers who have travelled on streetcars as far as Broadview are unlikely to switch to GO for a short final chunk of their trip.

 

[nfitz]

St Clair does not cross the RH line: it terminates just east of Mt Pleasant Road and starts again well east of DVP.

Now that would be a great Transit City ... Phase 3 ... project. Extend the St. Clair LRT ... east ... in a tunnel. Run it down either O'Connor or Overlea, and run it into St. Clair East in Scarborough to Warden station. Let's start putting transit in places roads don't go. A Lawrence East LRT would be interesting ... I guess there'd be no need for stops between Bayview and Leslie, so it could certainly move quickly! Don Mills Centre to Lawrence station in 10 minutes?

Maybe by 2100.

 

[Disparishun]

Regarding DRL, at least the per km cost of Sheppard and of Spadina extension can be used for estimates.

Really? Again, I would think that the biggest cost, by far, would be in expropriating and tunnelling under expensive and more densely-covered downtown land.

That said, I have no beef with the DRL. I'm just not sure it's a very good cost comparison.

St Clair does not cross the RH line: it terminates just east of Mt Pleasant Road and starts again well east of DVP. Could concider a stop at Leaside Bridge: bus connections to Overlea and Laird.

Bus connections aren't quite the same, mind you -- everywhere else you would be connecting to LRT (or stubway). Bears some thinking about. (I really like nfitz's idea but, well, like he says: 2100...).

A stop south of Bloor (Dundas or Queen) may be considered, but it will be for trips between the north and the south-east, not a downtown-relief stop. Passengers who have travelled on streetcars as far as Broadview are unlikely to switch to GO for a short final chunk of their trip.

Right. Again, and I hope I have not been unclear on this point, the RH LRT would relieve the north end of the Yonge line, not the south end.

By all accounts, demand in the north end (Eglinton north to, say, 7) exceeds the Yonge line's capacity. The RH LRT would be an express eastern configuration -- am I making unwarranted assumptions about technologies? is "LRT" the wrong thing to use for an express line that only stops at major concessions? -- anyway, would be an express north-south line on an easterly configuration that would relieve the overcrowded Yonge line using the least expensive and most efficient means (i.e. don't tunnel, don't expropriate, use the ROW that's already there).

Then riders Eglinton and south would be able to "get seats", an extremely important transit planning goal, and this would have been accomplished by giving transit riders alternative options rather than encouraging them to switch to cars, an obviously less important transit goal but still one worth pursuing.

 

[gweed123]

Really? Again, I would think that the biggest cost, by far, would be in expropriating and tunnelling under expensive and more densely-covered downtown land.

They would likely do what they did with the Yonge line and dig-and-cover directly under the streets for some parts, and do deep tunnelling (like what was done between Yonge and Sherbourne stations on the Bloor line).

But yes, I agree it would be really expensive to do, even compared to the Spadina extension. Maybe taking the figures for the downtown part of the original Yonge line, and translating them into today's dollars would give a more accurate estimation of cost.

 

[GenerationW]

Now that would be a great Transit City ... Phase 3 ... project. Extend the St. Clair LRT ... east ... in a tunnel. Run it down either O'Connor or Overlea, and run it into St. Clair East in Scarborough to Warden station. Let's start putting transit in places roads don't go. A Lawrence East LRT would be interesting ... I guess there'd be no need for stops between Bayview and Leslie, so it could certainly move quickly! Don Mills Centre to Lawrence station in 10 minutes?

Maybe by 2100.

I'd be 100% behind it, but good luck getting any kind of plan (road or transit) to connect Lawrence between Bayview and Leslie past the Bridle Path crowd.

Your St. Clair idea is very progressive, but I agree with you about the time frame -- very long-term if it ever happens.

 

[kEiThZ]

The Lawrence East LRT is a good idea. They could have continued the BRT till Lawrence and then had a Lawrence East to Morningside (via Kingston...for a 100m) LRT.

An Ellesmere LRT would also be good.

Someday when the Kennedy-STC subway link is built, I'd like to see them retain the SRT corridor (as a backbone) and run up LRTs from Kennedy to Ellesmere and Lawrence going east.

 

[nfitz]

Really? Again, I would think that the biggest cost, by far, would be in expropriating and tunnelling under expensive and more densely-covered downtown land.

It should be good for most of the construction, etc. There will be some extra costs near a couple of particular buildings.

Expropriation, land acquisition will be more expensive. But I would think that it would be counterbalanced by the potential for gaining revenue from the land afterwards. There hasn't been much opportunity to build an office building on top of Bessarion station for example!

 

[Edward]

Canadian Tire is putting up an office building next to Leslie Station so no reason to think one couldn't go up at Bessarion.

 

[Rainforest]

Now that would be a great Transit City ... Phase 3 ... project. Extend the St. Clair LRT ... east ... in a tunnel. Run it down either O'Connor or Overlea, and run it into St. Clair East in Scarborough to Warden station. Let's start putting transit in places roads don't go. A Lawrence East LRT would be interesting ... I guess there'd be no need for stops between Bayview and Leslie, so it could certainly move quickly! Don Mills Centre to Lawrence station in 10 minutes?

Lawrence LRT is a promising idea. The minimum would be eastern Scarborough to Don Mills, but might go further to Yonge and even continue on Lawrence West. The section between Glendon campus and Bathurst would likely have to be tunneled. But if it becomes a crosstown, it will be a good alleviator of Eglinton, as well as serve local nodes.

St. Clair crosstown does not look like a great idea though. The local density between Mt Pleasant and Victoria Park is low and is unlikely to increase much, hardly justifying a high-capacity transit. For long crosstown trips, St. Clair crosstown would be much slower than Bloor subway that is located just 2 km south. So, the passengers will use the subway.

 

[Epi]

Really? Again, I would think that the biggest cost, by far, would be in expropriating and tunnelling under expensive and more densely-covered downtown land.

That said, I have no beef with the DRL. I'm just not sure it's a very good cost comparison.

The only way to have the DRL at a reasonable cost is to use the railroad ROW on both the east and west ends to get to the level of Queen/Adelaide. If the entire thing is in a new ROW, it would be ridiculously expensive.