Alternatives to Transit City, the Spadina Extension, Yonge Extension, Etc.

[Disparishun]

Always remember that the end point of a subway line should never have anywhere near the demand that would fill the line to capacity. Otherwise, the line is useless when you get further along because nobody can get on. This is the problem that we're approaching with the Yonge line.

That makes almost no sense. How should demand near the theoretical end point of a subway line be addressed, then? Shall we ignore it? Close our eyes and hope it goes away? Encourage them to drive instead? Move employers and other trip generators towards the end points in a flurry of demand side management?

Perhaps a better thing to remember is that, where a subway line is almost full to capacity, the origins and destinations that that subway line ostensibly serves are not, in fact, adequately served -- more transit infrastructure is needed to serve the midpoints.

Which does not, of course, remove the requirement to address demand at the end points.

(Shorter version: time to LRT-ize the RH GO line.)

 

[Second_in_pie]

That makes almost no sense. How should demand near the theoretical end point of a subway line be addressed, then? Shall we ignore it? Close our eyes and hope it goes away? Encourage them to drive instead? Move employers and other trip generators towards the end points in a flurry of demand side management?

Perhaps a better thing to remember is that, where a subway line is almost full to capacity, the origins and destinations that that subway line ostensibly serves are not, in fact, adequately served -- more transit infrastructure is needed to serve the midpoints.

Which does not, of course, remove the requirement to address demand at the end points.

(Shorter version: time to LRT-ize the RH GO line.)

If I'm not mistaken, unimaginative is saying that the end of a line should have a much lower ridership than the maximum capacity of the line. Since the Yonge Line is almost past capacity already, yes we need another line like RH GO to provide better service to alleviate the entire line, as well as the DRL.

 

[gweed123]

If I'm not mistaken, unimaginative is saying that the end of a line should have a much lower ridership than the maximum capacity of the line. Since the Yonge Line is almost past capacity already, yes we need another line like RH GO to provide better service to alleviate the entire line, as well as the DRL.

Wouldn't extending the DRL northeast to Don Mills do a similar thing? Especially if there is a VIVA connection to Don Mills Station. Those east of Yonge wouldn't have to go all the way west to Yonge to reach a downtown-bound subway.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Wouldn't extending the DRL northeast to Don Mills do a similar thing? Especially if there is a VIVA connection to Don Mills Station. Those east of Yonge wouldn't have to go all the way west to Yonge to reach a downtown-bound subway.

Well, in the end we could have the Yonge Extension all the way up to Richmond Hill, the Richmond Hill Line running Express Trains to alleviate the Yonge Line (maybe it'll just be a Yonge Express, that might make more sense,) A Don Mills-Core line running up to Finch/Seneca College, Viva Green Running from Don Mills & Finch/Seneca or Viva Green running from Warden North on Sheppard, an all day Stouffville Line, maybe a McCowan BRT running to STC Subway Station? Then also a Finch Hydro Corridor BRT or Express Train, then 407 Transitway service to get you to Yonge or the Stouffville Line... well I'd call that a lot of options for the people of Markham in the could-be future.

But yes, having a Don Mills subway up to Sheppard, if not to Finch, will be a good way for those living in Markham to get downtown.

 

[Disparishun]

Wouldn't extending the DRL northeast to Don Mills do a similar thing? Especially if there is a VIVA connection to Don Mills Station. Those east of Yonge wouldn't have to go all the way west to Yonge to reach a downtown-bound subway.

There is no DRL. If and when that changes, it will surely be a line that is created to provide relief to the downtown.

LRT-izing the RH GO line will provide relief to a different part of the city (north of Eglinton, eastern alignment: North York, Scarborough, a bit of Markham) at far, far cheaper cost, within a much shorter horizon.

That is, if Metrolinx ever realizes that it is required.

If I'm not mistaken, unimaginative is saying that the end of a line should have a much lower ridership than the maximum capacity of the line. Since the Yonge Line is almost past capacity already, yes we need another line like RH GO to provide better service to alleviate the entire line, as well as the DRL.

Where existing and even planned capacity is inadequate to meet demand, then clearly more capacity needs to be planned. If even the Yonge extension will be inadequate to meet demand in the north end then, I agree, the Yonge extension is necessary but insufficient, and further projects -- LRTizing the RH GO line is the cheapest and most obvious -- are needed, too.

But somehow I got "you drive, we sit!", not "Yonge extension is not enough!" out of unimaginative's posting.

 

[doady]

It seems like the outer regions of the system are the only sections that are really up for much debating. I personally think that the the Mississauga line should be a dedicated, grade separated LRT line, as opposed to a full subway via an extension of B-D. 2 reasons why:

1) Demand: I don't really see the line having enough demand to justify a full 6 car subway (which if it was an extension of B-D it would have to be). A bit of overkill.

2) Separate systems: By having the Mississauga line being a completely separate line (with a similar transfer as to what is currently at Kennedy, or a slight improvement of it), this allows Mississauga Transit to own, operate, and make changes to the line without having to go to the TTC and ask. There's a pretty good chance the line would be extended or modified in one way or another, and taking a level of government/government corporation out of the mix makes the project more likely to succeed. The TTC shouldn't have the final say on what changes get done to a line in Mississauga. Naturally, capital costs would be covered under Metrolinx, the Feds, and the City, but the operating would not involve Toronto Council at all.

Side note: this is potentially why the Richmond Hill and Vaughan extensions may suffer problems, because the TTC is operating and maintaining (albeit not at their own expense, but they're being paid to do it) a line beyond their physical durisdiction. This leads to funding complications, equalization payments, etc. In short, a pretty big headache.

Also, thank you for the suggested name changes, I have made the changes on my map. Some of the areas I'm not that familiar with (I only know them by their intersection names, not the neighbourhood names or landmarks near by), so I wasn't too sure on the naming of them.

Or you could simply merge all transit in the GTA.

 

[MisterF]

There is no DRL. If and when that changes, it will surely be a line that is created to provide relief to the downtown.

LRT-izing the RH GO line will provide relief to a different part of the city (north of Eglinton, eastern alignment: North York, Scarborough, a bit of Markham) at far, far cheaper cost, within a much shorter horizon.

That is, if Metrolinx ever realizes that it is required.

Metrolinx has already realized that that's what's required. Converting the Richmond Hill line to express rail (electrified, all day service, frequencies as low as 5 minutes) is in their 25 year plan.

 

[kEiThZ]

Metrolinx has already realized that that's what's required. Converting the Richmond Hill line to express rail (electrified, all day service, frequencies as low as 5 minutes) is in their 25 year plan.

I don't know why they don't move this up instead of the DRL. It's cheaper and faster to setup and will allow the Yonge extension to proceed unhindered. The DRL could then be built in due time.

 

[Chuck]

I don't know why they don't move this up instead of the DRL. It's cheaper and faster to setup and will allow the Yonge extension to proceed unhindered. The DRL could then be built in due time.

I think that all three (Yonge extension, DRL, RH LRT) are needed, and none can function as a substitute for the other because each serves different market. Many of you already know my viewpoint on the RH line - it will never be a relief line for the Yonge extension, however it could be a relief line for the central Yonge subway (North York and Scarborough) with proper upgrades and new stations.

 

[Rainforest]

DRL subway and Richmond Hill GO Express

I think that DRL is a must, while Richmond Hill GO Express (or RH LRT) is nice-to-have.

DRL alone (downtown to Eglinton - Don Mills) will be sufficient to relieve Yonge. As an addition to DRL, RH GO Express will further enhance the system by providing express rides between a number of key hubs.

Will RH GO Express alone be sufficient to relieve Yonge, while remaining cheaper than DRL? I doubt it. There is a number of issues here:

1) To meaningfully relieve Yonge, RH GO Express would need a subway level capacity, as well as high frequency (probably every 10 min or better; otherwise not enough passengers will bother to switch). That requires double-tracking, electrification, and other major enhancements for the whole length (or at least from Union up to Finch), as opposed to DRL just up to Eglinton.

2) At Union Stn, RH GO Express will compete for space with Lakeshore, Brampton, and Mississauga-Milton expresses; will Union handle that? If a separate way into downtown is needed for RH line (tunnel plus new underground station), that's 1/4 of DRL's length.

3) It is very difficult to build a convenient interchange between the RH line and Danforth subway, hence Bloor East passengers heading downtown will continue to use Yonge. The relief function of RH GO Express will be limited to passengers from Eglinton E, Sheppard E, Finch E, and to some extent RH Centre.

 

[unimaginative2]

Many European cities would squeeze all of the trains GO operates into two tracks. Even if we gave Lakeshore East/Lakeshore West, Georgetown/Stouffville, Milton/Richmond Hill, and Bolton/Seaton their own pair of tracks, that still leaves five for VIA. That should be more than enough if they get better at not dawdling at Union. If we had more frequent, smaller trains, they wouldn't need to take so long to load and unload.

 

[Brandon716]

A completed DRL would have been nice, even beyond Bloor-Danforth a few stops.

 

[Rainforest]

Many European cities would squeeze all of the trains GO operates into two tracks. Even if we gave Lakeshore East/Lakeshore West, Georgetown/Stouffville, Milton/Richmond Hill, and Bolton/Seaton their own pair of tracks, that still leaves five for VIA. That should be more than enough if they get better at not dawdling at Union. If we had more frequent, smaller trains, they wouldn't need to take so long to load and unload.

It is not just the number of tracks that matters, but also passenger walkways, stairs and doors, ticket counters, even coffee stands I'd think this is doable, but probably at a nontrivial cost.

And even if Union is not really a bottleneck, two other issues with RH GO Express still stand: the need to double-track and electrify the whole line, and the difficult interchange with Danforth subway.

This is not to say RH GO Express is a bad idea; it is in fact a good idea. However I doubt that it can provide sufficient relief for Yonge in the absence of DRL, while remaining cheaper than DRL.

 

[Disparishun]

And even if Union is not really a bottleneck, two other issues with RH GO Express still stand: the need to double-track and electrify the whole line, and the difficult interchange with Danforth subway.

I think you are right about the Danforth subway non-interchange. Clearly it would have to interconnect at Steeles, Finch LRT, Sheppard Stubway, and Eglinton LRT. But are there any routes it could interconnect with between Eglinton and Union, that would be useful?

On double-tracking and electrifying, surely I would have thought that simply not having to tunnel, not having to expropriate (much) land, and being able to build within the existing ROW would result in significant savings.

This is not to say RH GO Express is a bad idea; it is in fact a good idea. However I doubt that it can provide sufficient relief for Yonge in the absence of DRL, while remaining cheaper than DRL.

I'm not sure it's an either-or -- but, still, wouldn't the main difference be that DRL will have to do all those things, plus tunnel and expropriate through a very expensive land base?

 

[gweed123]

Or you could simply merge all transit in the GTA.

Good luck getting the TTC to go with that... The odds are that the Leafs will win the cup before the TTC agrees to merge with anyone (and we all know what those odds are, haha).