Alternatives to Transit City, the Spadina Extension, Yonge Extension, Etc.

[Second_in_pie]

One thing that bugs me about this map is that the LRT lines are thicker than the subway lines, even though they're lower capacity. It's trying to equate them with subway, whereas they are not.

I also 'fixed' the map. I.e., I made Sheppard an actual cross-town subway line, rather than a transfer line.

It would make a bit more sense if it went to STC instead, but I guess it's just the idea.

Also, I think that the thicker LRT lines is just a by-product of all new routes being the thicker lines on the map. If you take a look at St. Clair, it's a thin line until it hits Old Weston Road, where it becomes thick. Same with the YUS extensions.

 

[golodhendil]

^ that's what we hope to see, hopefully within our lifetmes.

But for the thickness part, I think it only denotes which lines are existing and which are planned/UC. Eg, the Yonge and Spadina extensions are both as thick as the RT extension and the TC lines, whereas the existing RT is as thick as the existing subways.

(Edit: oops that was replying to CC's two posts above)

And as a regular user of the 39, I can attest to its usefulness and efficiency. Perhaps it might be taken as NIMBYism, but it would indeed be exceedingly stupid if they reroute the 39 away from Finch when they build the Finch W - Sheppard link.

 

[Dan416]

It would make a bit more sense if it went to STC instead, but I guess it's just the idea.

Also, I think that the thicker LRT lines is just a by-product of all new routes being the thicker lines on the map. If you take a look at St. Clair, it's a thin line until it hits Old Weston Road, where it becomes thick. Same with the YUS extensions.

Yeah I just mocked that up in a couple minutes to make a point. I would have the Sheppard subway reach from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre to start. That would be a pretty good stretch (17 km) compared to Bloor-Danforth (27 km).

 

[kEiThZ]

One thing these graphics really show is how valuable a Sheppard West subway extension would be. It would really plug a hole in the system.

 

[gweed123]

So I did some thinking today and I came up with this fantasy map. It's a culmination of things I've been reading scattered throughout the various threads on here. I've tried to keep most of what Transit City has proposed (although I have modified some of it), as well as taking Blue 22 (or a version of it) into account.

A brief bit of reasoning behind why I did what I did:

Downtowner: aka the DRL. After reading all this stuff about Blue 22, I figured it would be logical to combine it with a subway proposal (although it would be using the existing CN ROW, so it wouldn't actually be tunnelled, saving on cost. I opted to 4 track it because then it provides both local and express service, for only a marginal increase in cost (basically the cost of the stations). This removes one of the main gripes of the Weston community (frequent trains without any real accessibility).

The reasoning behind extending the express service eastward to Main Street was again, if you're going to be building a subway, adding extra tracks while you're building (especially when it's above ground and using a rail ROW), isn't that substantial of a cost increase. Extending the express line east to Main provides a 3 station stop to Union (with standard TTC fare), while now it would be 16 + a transfer at Bloor-Yonge. Marginal cost, great service increase for East Toronto residents.

The reasoning behind the Don Mills subway as an extension of the DRL has already been well documented, so I don't see a need to explain that one.

Eglinton: It made sense to have an Eglinton West subway in the 80s, and I don't really think Eglinton has decreased in density since then. I followed TC for the most part (other than the fact that it's a subway), except for in the west. I chose to end it at Eglinton Flats because beyond there subway doesn't make much sense in terms of ridership (the big appeal was the airport, but that is covered with the downtowner, so no need for a slower route at a much higher extra cost). I figured LRT/BRT would be sufficient to service Square One.

Sheppard: Extension west to Downsview, east to STC, all subway, the way it was originally planned. Changing it to an LRT halfway through the route is rediculous.

Mississauga RT: Optional line, not very high on the priority list, but eventually would be a nice thing to have.

Yonge and Spadina extensions: As per Metrolinx RTP and TC.

Naturally some of these are more important than others, but I feel that the Downtowner (DRL) is the key to all of it. Let me know what you think.

EDIT: Opted for a Wellington alignment for the DRL through downtown, then jumping to the rail corridor in the west and King/Queen in the east.

 

[unimaginative2]

Generally that's a pretty good map. There are just a couple issues that I have with it. If you're going to do that much investment, it seems crazy not to just replace the RT with a subway to Scarborough. I've also commented ad nauseam about how Mississauga City Centre would be best served by regional rail on the current GO Milton corridor, which would be diverted north along Hurontario and west along the 403 to serve MCC. Regional rail is faster and generally higher capacity than a subway or RT. As I mentioned earlier, I'd like to see the Don Mills subway run as far north as Finch. It seems logical to go the one extra station to serve a densely developed area and a large college campus. I don't really know if it's necessary to extend the DRL north of Dundas West. I can see the logic, but I think real regional rail on the rail corridor there would be just as effective. Another small point is that Weston is actually at Lawrence and not Eglinton.

 

[gweed123]

Generally that's a pretty good map. There are just a couple issues that I have with it. If you're going to do that much investment, it seems crazy not to just replace the RT with a subway to Scarborough. I've also commented ad nauseam about how Mississauga City Centre would be best served by regional rail on the current GO Milton corridor, which would be diverted north along Hurontario and west along the 403 to serve MCC. Regional rail is faster and generally higher capacity than a subway or RT. As I mentioned earlier, I'd like to see the Don Mills subway run as far north as Finch. It seems logical to go the one extra station to serve a densely developed area and a large college campus. I don't really know if it's necessary to extend the DRL north of Dundas West. I can see the logic, but I think real regional rail on the rail corridor there would be just as effective. Another small point is that Weston is actually at Lawrence and not Eglinton.

You've raised some good points. In general, I feel that regional rail is great at bringing people over long distances to a single point (in this case Union). However, the problem with regional rail is that it's very difficult to get on to. If you're going soley by transit, sometimes it takes longer to get to the actual station than it does for the trip from that station to your destination station. Square One would benefit from a GO station, but mainly for commuting purposes, not for leisure trips, etc. Yes RR does have a higher capacity, but it also has much lower connectivity, and for the most part, lower frequency as well.

And the Weston stop wasn't named for the GO station, rather for the neighbourhood in general. Plus, with so many stops on the same street, it gets harder to name them (I had to change the original Lawrence West to Lawrence Heights, because otherwise it would have had to have been Lawrence Really West).

As for the Scarborough RT, I'm still trying to work through in my head the best course of action for that. Extending B-D could prove more costly than anticipated, especially if turning radi and such need to be changed. On the otherhand, downgrading it to LRT could overwhelm the system.

As for the western portion of the DRL, I personally feel that that is the most important project at the moment, especially if the current Union-Pearson plans go through. The ridership levels that the current plan are likely to produce do not justify the expense of the line, nor does it provide any increase in service to residents immediately adjacent to it. For marginally more than the cost of a commuter line, you can have a 4 track subway line.

With the Don Mills extension to Finch, I have to admit I'm not very familiar with that area, so I'll leave that up to you to determine, haha.

 

[unimaginative2]

You've raised some good points. In general, I feel that regional rail is great at bringing people over long distances to a single point (in this case Union). However, the problem with regional rail is that it's very difficult to get on to. If you're going soley by transit, sometimes it takes longer to get to the actual station than it does for the trip from that station to your destination station. Square One would benefit from a GO station, but mainly for commuting purposes, not for leisure trips, etc. Yes RR does have a higher capacity, but it also has much lower connectivity, and for the most part, lower frequency as well.

But it doesn't have to. You're describing the situation in Toronto as it is today. There's no fundamental reason why connectivity or frequency have to be lower on regional rail than on a subway or an RT. In Germany, for example, S-Bahn stations are more-or-less as frequent as subway stations. Now we don't have to go that far, but there's no reason why stations can't be added. The key is that longer distance destinations, like Hamilton or Barrie, should be served by a regional express service. Of course we need a complete redesign of bus routes so that they feed into regional rail stations the same was as they currently feed into subway station.

As for the Scarborough RT, I'm still trying to work through in my head the best course of action for that. Extending B-D could prove more costly than anticipated, especially if turning radi and such need to be changed. On the otherhand, downgrading it to LRT could overwhelm the system.

There's no reason why extending the subway should be complex at all. When you're talking about turning radii, I assume you're suggesting that the subway should take the existing RT route. That's definitely one option that should be examined more closely, but most of the talk has been of a short two-stop extension along the same abandoned rail corridor that the B-D line uses between Warden and Kennedy and then more or less directly to STC. It would be a very easy project to build, especially since the surface infrastructure for the station at STC is already established.

As for the western portion of the DRL, I personally feel that that is the most important project at the moment, especially if the current Union-Pearson plans go through. The ridership levels that the current plan are likely to produce do not justify the expense of the line, nor does it provide any increase in service to residents immediately adjacent to it. For marginally more than the cost of a commuter line, you can have a 4 track subway line.

This is again more-or-less a matter of semantics, but I think it makes more sense to use standard gauge, overhead-electrified regional rail equipment on the route rather than subway equipment. From the standpoint of frequency and service, the impact on Weston would be minimal. There's no point in having a subway directly parallel and immediately adjacent to a frequent regional rail service that would be running to Brampton and Bolton anyway.

With the Don Mills extension to Finch, I have to admit I'm not very familiar with that area, so I'll leave that up to you to determine, haha.

Cool! Haha...yeah, well I've nerdily driven the route dozens of times, so I'm pretty familiar with it. At Finch, you can also use the hydro corridor for park and ride and generally a much roomier terminal than at Sheppard.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Just curious Gweed, how did you make your map? I've been aspiring to do some maps, but I haven't been able to actually do any, mostly because I don't know how.

Your map's pretty good though. There are some points that I dislike, like keeping the SRT and this "Mississauga RT" thing. Other than that, it's not bad. I'm kinda surprised at keeping the Jane, Scarborough-Malvern and Finch East LRTs, but the subway stuff is pretty cool, especially the Downtowner Express route. I think that Eglinton is a more logical choice to extend to the airport than the DRL, as there's a lot of development potential along that route, and it doesn't really make much sense extending the DRL further West.

 

[gweed123]

Just curious Gweed, how did you make your map? I've been aspiring to do some maps, but I haven't been able to actually do any, mostly because I don't know how.

Your map's pretty good though. There are some points that I dislike, like keeping the SRT and this "Mississauga RT" thing. Other than that, it's not bad. I'm kinda surprised at keeping the Jane, Scarborough-Malvern and Finch East LRTs, but the subway stuff is pretty cool, especially the Downtowner Express route. I think that Eglinton is a more logical choice to extend to the airport than the DRL, as there's a lot of development potential along that route, and it doesn't really make much sense extending the DRL further West.

I used AppleWorks for it (a pretty old program, but it works well for drawing lines and moving stuff around easily).

The Mississauga RT I added in there as a long-term thing (in my phasing plan, which I didn't post, I actually had it in the final phase, along with the Spadina extension north from York U), with the realization that eventually high-rise development would extend beyond Square One, and with a subway or RT along that route, it could be a magnet for TOD development along that corridor, as opposed to just putting it anywhere. Naturally it could also be a BRT or LRT, just something there.

The reason why I put the DRL to the airport was as an alternative to the Blue 22 proposal. It's by far the cheapest way to get it there (extending a subway along Eglinton to the airport would be much more expensive). Plus using the DRL provides direct connectivity to downtown, as opposed to using Eglinton which would require at least 1 transfer to reach Union.

I also updated the map to remove the SRT and replace it with an extension of B-D.

 

[toraerach]

And the Weston stop wasn't named for the GO station, rather for the neighbourhood in general. Plus, with so many stops on the same street, it gets harder to name them (I had to change the original Lawrence West to Lawrence Heights, because otherwise it would have had to have been Lawrence Really West).

All around a good plan, but some of the station names didn't really do it for me. I don't think it's a good idea to rename any station*, especially if you're going to use its old name somewhere else. It will confuse a lot of people, and there are some alternatives, though some might require some creativity.

Here are my suggestions:
Dundas West > Sorauren (as it was in the old DRL plans)
Lansdowne South > Brockton
Lawrence West > Weston
Jane North > Mount Dennis
Weston > Kodak Heights
Bathurst North > Forest Hill
Dufferin North > Vaughan Road
Victoria Park North > Sullivan
Warden North > Tam O'Shanter
Kennedy North > Agincourt
Riverdale > Gerrard
Riverdale South > Queen East/DeGrassi
City Place > Clarence Square (the last three just being personal preference)

*excepting new transfer stations - Bloor-Dundas, Eglinton-Yonge, Danforth-Pape, etc. Though I've always felt Yonge-Eglinton and Pape-Danforth roll off the tongue a bit better - I guess Bloor-Yonge and Sheppard-Yonge have set a precedent.

 

[unimaginative2]

^A small nitpick: there were no station names on the old DRL plans for the section west of Spadina. It was intended to be a second phase and they hadn't even gotten to the point of specifying a route. The Front Extension-Dufferin-rail corridor route was just one option. Another was to continue west along the lakeshore rail corridor and then north along Roncesvalles.

 

[Dan416]

Very nice map. It's almost exactly what I'd do in Toronto. My Missisauga section would look different, with the B-D line ending at MCC.

 

[gweed123]

It seems like the outer regions of the system are the only sections that are really up for much debating. I personally think that the the Mississauga line should be a dedicated, grade separated LRT line, as opposed to a full subway via an extension of B-D. 2 reasons why:

1) Demand: I don't really see the line having enough demand to justify a full 6 car subway (which if it was an extension of B-D it would have to be). A bit of overkill.

2) Separate systems: By having the Mississauga line being a completely separate line (with a similar transfer as to what is currently at Kennedy, or a slight improvement of it), this allows Mississauga Transit to own, operate, and make changes to the line without having to go to the TTC and ask. There's a pretty good chance the line would be extended or modified in one way or another, and taking a level of government/government corporation out of the mix makes the project more likely to succeed. The TTC shouldn't have the final say on what changes get done to a line in Mississauga. Naturally, capital costs would be covered under Metrolinx, the Feds, and the City, but the operating would not involve Toronto Council at all.

Side note: this is potentially why the Richmond Hill and Vaughan extensions may suffer problems, because the TTC is operating and maintaining (albeit not at their own expense, but they're being paid to do it) a line beyond their physical durisdiction. This leads to funding complications, equalization payments, etc. In short, a pretty big headache.

Also, thank you for the suggested name changes, I have made the changes on my map. Some of the areas I'm not that familiar with (I only know them by their intersection names, not the neighbourhood names or landmarks near by), so I wasn't too sure on the naming of them.

 

[unimaginative2]

Always remember that the end point of a subway line should never have anywhere near the demand that would fill the line to capacity. Otherwise, the line is useless when you get further along because nobody can get on. This is the problem that we're approaching with the Yonge line.