News   Dec 20, 2024
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Afternoon shooting in Toronto's Little Italy leaves one person dead

I think we're kind of missing the point here. Gun violence, and especially gang violence, does not operate in isolation in one particular community or racial group. It is a problem for all of us, and we are all responsible for it either directly or indirectly. There are systemic social problems that allow a space for this kind of violence. There have been failures on the part of the police and the justice system for dealing not only with violent offenders, but also with witness protection leading to a code of silence that allows criminals to operate with impunity. There have been failures of our social services - poorly thought out social housing projects, a lack of funding for violence prevention in schools and community centres, a failure of anti-discrimination policies on the part of the police (that black parents, for example, still have to give their kids the talk is outrageous), etc. There are cultural problems, and not those necessarily tied to one community - gangster culture is a thoroughly North American invention, it is celebrated in the mainstream, and it is appropriated and propogated by large corporations. Then there's the fact that the war on drugs has been a massive failure, and that the drug trade (with customers in every segment of the population) is hugely profitible for organized crime. This isn't a foreign problem or a problem confined to the fringes of the city, it's something with deep roots all across the city.

It's also important to remember that there really isn't a single black culture in this city anymore than there is a single white culture. We have large black communities with roots in three very distinct parts of the world (North America, the Caribbean and Africa). Even within those groups there are very diverse subgroupings based on nation of origin, class, neighbourhood, etc. Reducing all of that to one label and slapping it on gun crime comes off as scapegoating more than anything of value.

Poverty is a huge issue here. Look at any city in North America (or the Western world) and an underclass will have a higher rate of crime and violence regardless of ethnic/racial make-up. Addressing poverty is the simplest way to prevent what is probably the most preventable forms of violence.
 
I think we're kind of missing the point here...

* snipped for brevity *

Addressing poverty is the simplest way to prevent what is probably the most preventable forms of violence.
Everything you've said here is more or less correct IMO. So now how do you identify where best to direct your efforts?
 
I think we're kind of missing the point here. Gun violence, and especially gang violence, does not operate in isolation in one particular community or racial group. It is a problem for all of us, and we are all responsible for it either directly or indirectly. There are systemic social problems that allow a space for this kind of violence. There have been failures on the part of the police and the justice system for dealing not only with violent offenders, but also with witness protection leading to a code of silence that allows criminals to operate with impunity. There have been failures of our social services - poorly thought out social housing projects, a lack of funding for violence prevention in schools and community centres, a failure of anti-discrimination policies on the part of the police (that black parents, for example, still have to give their kids the talk is outrageous), etc. There are cultural problems, and not those necessarily tied to one community - gangster culture is a thoroughly North American invention, it is celebrated in the mainstream, and it is appropriated and propogated by large corporations. Then there's the fact that the war on drugs has been a massive failure, and that the drug trade (with customers in every segment of the population) is hugely profitible for organized crime. This isn't a foreign problem or a problem confined to the fringes of the city, it's something with deep roots all across the city.

It's also important to remember that there really isn't a single black culture in this city anymore than there is a single white culture. We have large black communities with roots in three very distinct parts of the world (North America, the Caribbean and Africa). Even within those groups there are very diverse subgroupings based on nation of origin, class, neighbourhood, etc. Reducing all of that to one label and slapping it on gun crime comes off as scapegoating more than anything of value.

Poverty is a huge issue here. Look at any city in North America (or the Western world) and an underclass will have a higher rate of crime and violence regardless of ethnic/racial make-up. Addressing poverty is the simplest way to prevent what is probably the most preventable forms of violence.

Well said, lesouris
 

Thank God that could never happen in Toronto...




Tragedy, violence mar holiday weekend
Tim Alamenciak

Gunfire rang out several times over the long weekend. A man was shot in the chest in the area of Winners Circle and Lake Shore Blvd. E. around 10:30 p.m., as thousands watched Canada Day fireworks. He was rushed to trauma centre where he was eventually stabilized.

“Since the Eaton centre shooting and now this,” said Victoria Ramsay, who was enjoying a picnic on the beach Monday morning. “It’s not the same city any more. I’ve seen the city slowly declining over the last few years.”

A man was also shot at a party on Toro Rd. near Finch Ave. W. and Keele St. around 1:20 a.m. Monday. He was stabilized in hospital.

On Saturday night in North York a 2-year-old girl sat with her legs dangling out of a car when a bullet flew by and struck her leg. The bullet left behind just a scrape.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/1220256--two-seriously-hurt-in-overnight-shootings



Frankly, I'm amazed at how deluded people here can be.
 
They have 253 murders so far in Chicago. I'm sure that was the point.

You honestly think we are in the same league in terms of violence? With almost the same population, we have had 25.
 
I make this point over and over again:

In just about any US city, if your not in the demographics that are likely to be involved in gang activity, directly or not (i.e. you may be in a gang / grow up and live around them), you're probably just as likely (or not likely I should say) to be shot as Toronto.

i.e. the random acts of violence, or I should say, non-random acts that effects random people (almost always unintentionally) are just as likely in Toronto then even the US city with the worse murder rate !

Even with murder rates 3/4/5X Toronto by far and large all of these involve gangs and only effect those in gangs (of course all their families as well).

The point is I really don't think for a random person Toronto is much safer.
 
They have 253 murders so far in Chicago. I'm sure that was the point.

You honestly think we are in the same league in terms of violence? With almost the same population, we have had 25.

Violence that effects unintended targets ... yes, we're likely in the same league.
 
You choose to align yourself with the people who made the above comments and expect me to take you seriously on this topic? LOL.

To be honest I'm not really interested in 'aligning' myself with anybody. I'm not interested in cheap shots at all. The problem we are discussing here is that of gun violence in Toronto, which many of us deduce to be largely among certain socio-demographic groups that are black. You can choose to disagree with this (which is fair and let's discuss) but you cannot brand me or anybody here a racist for not buying your point of view. You certainly better have something better than 'innuendo' to base a charge like that on, my friend!
 
They have 253 murders so far in Chicago. I'm sure that was the point.

You honestly think we are in the same league in terms of violence? With almost the same population, we have had 25.

My point is that we should let Chicago worry about Chicago's problems and deal with our own rather than being smug about the numbers or smug about specific incidents.
 
Well said, lesouris

I'm not sure what Lesouris has said that is very different. Lesouris is talking about social and cultural issues among certain black demographics that lead to violent crime which is what's been argued all along. Please explain.
 
I don't think anyone's arguing that we should be complacent. Just that we should keep things in perspective.

Violence that effects unintended targets ... yes, we're likely in the same league.

Are you sure about that? It would be interesting to see how many unintended targets have been shot in each city so far this year. Something tells me Chicago would still be a lot higher.
 
I'm not sure what Lesouris has said that is very different. Lesouris is talking about social and cultural issues among certain black demographics that lead to violent crime which is what's been argued all along. Please explain.

Here is his quote:

It's also important to remember that there really isn't a single black culture in this city anymore than there is a single white culture. We have large black communities with roots in three very distinct parts of the world (North America, the Caribbean and Africa). Even within those groups there are very diverse subgroupings based on nation of origin, class, neighbourhood, etc. Reducing all of that to one label and slapping it on gun crime comes off as scapegoating more than anything of value.

AoD
 
I have lived in the US, in South America, and in Canada. Chances of running into gun-related crime here in Toronto are spectacularly low. I don't even avoid any neighbourhoods for the most part. In most other cities in the American continent you must avoid neighbourhoods as a part of your daily routine or you'll run into trouble sooner or later.
 

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