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Afghanistan debate (Hillier, new troops)

I've indicated some examples in post #156. But honestly, do you really believe that there has been no progress of any kind in Afghanistan whatsoever? Again, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by progress (or the lack thereof).

No I am not denying there has been progress. However I will repeat what I said above. The mission is a failure for the last 7 years, the taliban warlords still rule, minorities still suffer, support for the new government is faltering, the people see us as occupiers. ABC News and The Asian Foundation Polls show decreasing trends in support for the mission (By Afghans).
 
Last time I will respond to this issue.

1) I complained to mods not just about one thread but by asking them to look at the pattern of threads that you had put up.

2) The thread in question that was closed had your hand in it as well. You will not accept reasonable debate on religion. And I will not countenance what I perceive as bashing of any religion. If I had any fault in the matter, yours was not any less.

3) You are again trying to paint me as a closet islamophobe. I have already explained that growing up in the Middle East for close to a third of my life, I have significant exposure to Islam and that's why I use as an example.

4) The only thread I have ever complained about was the one in question. I try very hard to stay on topic in every thread and I think my post history will show that. As for this thread...what does a previous thread closing have to do with this thread? Did I bring it up? You're moping around, now jacking other threads and Mot is enabling your rather boorish behaviour.

5) I am sincerely hoping that you have more to contribute to UT than simply bashing religion. Is the best you have to contribute in a thread about Afghanistan what happened in another thread a month ago? Are you now going to bring this up every time I ask people to stay on topic?

6) Your maturity is clearly demonstrated when you compare me to the Taliban, even going so far as to send me PMs to that effect. So apparently you consider anyone who calls you out on your bashing of faiths to be like the Taliban. And from your PM should somebody countenance your rather offensive and unbalanced views of religion they should be drummed out of the forces as well. It should be noted: I did not bring up religion in this forum. You did. And I have not brought up religion in this thread, you did. For me the Taliban are insurgents who happen to use Islam as a convenient veneer for their efforts to subjugate the Afghan people. I don't care about them being muslim. I only care about them trying to kill Afghans and my buddies in the field.


1) i do admit i talk about religion alot but that's because i know quite a bit about the subject and it is something that effects us all. i say that religion has effected more people in toronto that terrorism or that taliban has. why not talk about it?

2) i do accept reasonable debate on religion. pretty much all my claims were backed up with proof.

3) i don't care if you're an islamophobe. i don't know if you even are. what i said is that when we are talking about your faith, you have to bring up another faith that is not yours to take the focus off your belief. your belief is special, other beliefs are not. heck, if you waned to talk about atheism and communism i would have more than welcomed the discussion, and not asked that it be stopped like a rabid religious cleric.

4) what it has to do with this thread is your hypocrisy mr. tolerance.

5) i do contribute more to UT than just religious discussion. i do admit that it's hard for me to start threads of various nature because of my immobility and lack of experiencing toronto so i contribute to other people's threads. it's not often that accessibility is in the news but when it is, i start threads on those issues as well. p.s, out of the last 62 threads i started on record, a quick glimpse showed that 8 dealt with issues critical to christianity and 1 dealt with issues critical to islam. in relation to our population, it makes sense that i threaded on one subject more than the other.

6) i didn't send you a private message, it's on your wall for everyone to see. people can decide for themselves just who's more mature.
 
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Yes I believe you soldiers refer to this as "Collateral Damage".

Collateral damage is civilian casualties that occur as a byproduct of military operations. This is not collateral damage. This is death as a result of trespassing. It should be noted that Canada has some of the strictest rules for CD. We basically do not tolerate or accept any CD in our military operations.


That explanation really works well for those who lost loved ones.

Imagine that this happened in Canada. Parents leave their children unattended. The children ignore warning signs, cross over barbed wire fences, end up on a military or police training range, pick up a leftover explosive and get killed. Who would you blame?

Now, look at this from another angle. Let's say the range was used by the ANA or the ANP. Would there be protests? Probably not. The Afghan government does not pay compensation.

It does not take away from the tragedy of the situation. But there's only so many precautions that are humanly possible to undertake. What would you have us do, shoot at Afghans trying to trespass on the range?

You seem to forget it is their country and we are tresspassing. A little respect for the people who actually own the land and live in the country could go a long way.

I assure you that we never forget that we are guests of the Afghan government and the Afghan people. That's drilled into every military person in theatre. And every aspect of this mission is geared towards getting us out as quickly as possible. Our own Army is burning out and would like out as quickly as possible as well. All that does not mean, however, that we should take the fall for anything and everything that goes wrong in Afghanistan.

Plus you are taking this official line as truth.

Is there some other truth you are aware off? The parents admitted that their kids were scrounging for scrap metal.

I seriously doubt in the Afghan situation that this war and the way it was been handled is the means to peace. The mission is a failure for the last 7 years, the taliban warlords still rule, minorities still suffer, support for the new government is faltering, the people see us as occupiers. ABC News and The Asian Foundation Polls show decreasing trends in support for the mission.

I don't see the mission as a failure at all. 90% of the violence occurs in 10% of the districts. That's akin to saying Toronto is a violent city based on life at Jane/Finch. Granted, the 10% of districts are a tough slog. But I am a firm believer that if we do enough (both security and development wise) we'll get there. Aside from that, tell me what the alternative is? And please respond to my previous challenge: what would you have us do if the same thing happened in say Darfur? Mission stagnates so that's it, pack up and leave?
 
Keith, You want more of the same and expect a different result. My point in this entire discussion is the strategy we've used for 7 years and the one you want to continue is not working. As I said early on in this topic, you nor I are experts and to pretend we have an answer to success would by lying. I can be critical of the current policy and see it's not working without knowing how to fix it.

The Taliban is in contol of the majority of the country, their violence toward the citizens of Afghanistan has not subsided, I don't know where you got this 90% to 10% split.
 
I mean no disrespect to anyone here, but what is always striking to me are the individuals who say that they recognize oppression in other nations, demand that some action be taken to alleviate that oppression, refuse to define in any clear manner what that action should be or how it should be implemented, and then complain when measures are taken to help pull a population from under an oppressive regime.

There are no perfect solutions to these types of situations because no two are exactly the same. There is no instant package for introducing democratic government into places where there barely has been any government; there is no infrastructure-in-a-day program; there are no quicky introductions to national unity and common civil society for all; there is no prepared re-education plan that would help end anti-female attitudes - all the while while avoiding charges of western enthnocentrism at the same time.

It does not help that critics decide to set up moving goal posts with respect to assessing any relative progress when trying to help people in another part of the world. It is always easy to be critical, to make blanket demands with unrealistic timelines and to underestimate the difficulty of such a venture. The reality is that these situations rarely ever conform to the ease of stating grand goals while avoiding the troubling details. Criticism can be very useful, but it just can't be founded on vague platitudes or a set of all-or-nothing principles.

As I stated earlier, I can't help but to give some respect the isolationist attitude - not because I like it, but because it simply avoids so much of this self-recrimination and neglectfulness of the reality on the ground in other parts of the world. Maybe, as a country, our responsibility is only to ourselves and not to anyone beyond our borders. But I think that with such an attitude in play, we'd likely end up living in a colder, more distant and more paranoid world. For so many reasons, it's difficult to make the world a better place for all us, but it appears to be much easier to make it worse. It can start with neglect as much as with any other attitude.

In the end, had NATO not ventured into Afghanistan, maybe the Taliban would have eventually been removed from power by the Afghans themselves - but probably only after the depopulating of the country, seriously abusing the people and further driving the country into the stone age. The Taliban would probably have been pushed out by a competitor, or fall from within as power-hungry factions began to fight for control over whatever there was left to control. It would be hard to see how things would have gotten any better for the people there in any reasonable span of time.
 
I started a new religion thread under General Discussions so we can take the it over there and leave this thread on topic.
 
is there any info indicating how many people would prefer living under taliban rule? if there is a big part of the population preferring it, this poses a huge problem. there is a serious ideology issue that gives the talibastards support. how do you change the ethics of a segment of the population? how do you liberate a person who thinks it's okay to kill someone who is an apostate or believes it's okay it's okay for the community to stone his daughter to death just because she had sexual intercourse before marriage? or with someone of another faith?

trying to fix everything that's wrong could take generations of occupation. the rights of children, women and religious freedom are the biggest issues that will hamper progress unless they are seriously addressed. old mentalities need to die out and dissent from the norm needs to be protected.
 
I've never understood people who think just because N.A. supposedly has "freedom" that other countries should have similar "freedoms." NO!

Canada, North America and other European countries have one way of life, while Middle Eastern (etc) countries have theirs. Those that want "freedom" are welcome to move to Canada etc while those that don't, can live in their own version of "normal."

So, 1,000,000 Canadian troops will never make a difference! (Unless they're Afghani-Canadians.)
 
Keith, You want more of the same and expect a different result.

My job as a regional analyst gives me a fair bit of insight I assure you.

My point in this entire discussion is the strategy we've used for 7 years and the one you want to continue is not working. As I said early on in this topic, you nor I are experts and to pretend we have an answer to success would by lying. I can be critical of the current policy and see it's not working without knowing how to fix it.

The problem with the current policy is implementation. We (US/NATO) did a half-assed job when the US ran off into Iraq. There were points during the invasion phase of the Iraq war where there was almost no UAV coverage over Afghanistan...just as NATO was trying to corner the Taliban and AQ. So now we are stuck making up for it.

I have my criticisms of the current strategy. To start with the US needs to put in significant resources into Afghanistan. Just as much as they have done with Iraq. Everyone forgets that, at least with Iraq you have social, organizational and physical infrastructure (however inadequate) that was available after the invasion. Afghanistan by contrast had nothing. I am also critical of the way certain countries conduct ops. Part of the reason Canada has such high casualties is that we patrol aggressively. We do our best to seek out the enemy instead of waiting for him to come to us. Nor do we drive around in Humvees not interacting with locals. That has the added benefit of re-assuring the population and building relationships with them. They come to see that those crazy Canadians are here to help. That message is reinforced with development aid in the districts we engage in. Concurrent with that we are working hard to build up governance, train the army, train the police force, train the judiciary, build up social infrastructure, etc. Indeed, if you look at the new US strategy for Afghanistan it's basically the Canadian strategy in Kandahar taken to the national level.

The problem that we've had is that we don't have enough boots on the ground. Kandahar is the size of Nova Scotia and we are trying to secure it with 1 reinforced infantry battalion (about 800-100) personnel (the other 1500 personnel are support and development staff). For comparison, the Toronto Police Service has over 5000 cops...yet we still get violence in Toronto. Just imagine what would happen if Toronto got down to say about 500 cops for the whole city. Now you get a picture of the challenge we have in Kandahar.

The biggest challenge that we have however are the Afghans themselves. The Afghan government is extremely corrupt, lacks resources, and misuses the resources it does have. Until that changes it'll be hard to convince the average Afghan that progress is being made. Yet, how do you change a democratically elected government? Should the west simply install a puppet Afghan regime so that we can get development going at our preferred pace?

The Taliban is in contol of the majority of the country, their violence toward the citizens of Afghanistan has not subsided, I don't know where you got this 90% to 10% split.

The Taliban is not 'in control' of the majority of Afghanistan. That's flat out wrong. They have a presence in a good chunk of the districts but they don't have all out control in any and really contest government writ in a few. The observation on the distribution of violence was observed by the Canadian general who was in charge of RC(south). It's repeated here in US congressional testimony:

http://2002-2009-fpc.state.gov/107344.htm

And it's borne out in the news. How often do you hear about attacks in northern Afghanistan? When was the last time you heard of an attack in Badakshan, Bagdhis, Ghore, Sare Pol, etc? Most of the attacks happen in eastern and southern Afghanistan.

This is the problem with just reading a western newspaper. The media has really done a piss-poor job of analyzing the war in Aghanistan. They don't cover any of the development so everyone at home thinks we are just blowing up people and things there. The western media also does not cover the ethnic complexity of Afghanistan. Do you really think the 60% or so of the population that is not Pashtun really wants to be ruled by a hardline, fundamentalist Pashtun regime which takes orders from Islamabad (Pakistan is the sworn enemy for many Afghans)? Heck, most of the Pashtuns themselves don't like the hardline stance of the Taliban. They supported them because they were better than the alternative...feudalism and warlordism in the pre-Taliban era. They may have quibbles with the way NATO operates but I assure you that no Afghan I have ever met said that they prefer to live under the Taliban if a viable alternative (stable government) was available. The problem for us today is that the Kabul government does a poor job of governing and often NATO gets stuck with the blame.

As for the surveys......look at the questions they ask. They never ask do you want NATO to leave and the Taliban to come back. And a last word on surveys in Afghanistan. They are notoriously difficult. Afghan culture demands that they don't cause offence. So that means most Afghans you poll will always agree with whatever question you ask them. It takes a lot of digging to get out their real opinions. Simply asking passers by on street corners (the survey techniques of half these NGO pollsters) will yield absolutely nothing useful.

That said I am under no under illusions that every Afghan loves NATO. We have to improve governance and we have to improve security and then they might begin to trust us. But to do that requires more than what we are doing now.

Lastly, I will challenge you to present an alternative viable plan. You say we are doing more of the same. That statement belies your knowledge of what we are doing. The mission has changed significantly since it began and it is due to change significantly this year. We are not 'doing more of the same.' But I challenge you to present an alternative. Should we pull out and let the Taliban just have at the Afghan people? Is that your preferred solution? If you don't want more of the same, what exactly is it that you want?
 
No I am not denying there has been progress. However I will repeat what I said above. The mission is a failure for the last 7 years, the taliban warlords still rule, minorities still suffer, support for the new government is faltering, the people see us as occupiers. ABC News and The Asian Foundation Polls show decreasing trends in support for the mission (By Afghans).

http://asiafoundation.org/publications/pdf/422

Here's the survey. Go through it. There's a lot more than ABC News' simplistic overview.
 
is there any info indicating how many people would prefer living under taliban rule? if there is a big part of the population preferring it, this poses a huge problem.

trying to fix everything that's wrong could take generations of occupation. the rights of children, women and religious freedom are the biggest issues that will hamper progress unless they are seriously addressed. old mentalities need to die out and dissent from the norm needs to be protected.

Concerning how many people would prefer to live under taliban rule, this would suggest people being able to choose between alternatives. In order to cary out such a survey the people first have to have a degree of freedom to choose (something the taliban was not known to grant); and second, knowledge of the possible alternatives.

I've never understood people who think just because N.A. supposedly has "freedom" that other countries should have similar "freedoms." NO!

Canada, North America and other European countries have one way of life, while Middle Eastern (etc) countries have theirs. Those that want "freedom" are welcome to move to Canada etc while those that don't, can live in their own version of "normal."

Your ignorance is not necessarily a good indicator for the needs or wants of other people. You have the luxury of these freedoms that you deem as "supposed." Others don't have them at all.

As for ways of life, your musings suggest an ever-unchanging cultural history - which is simply not true. Cultures change over time. Besides, the taliban in Afghanistan are hardly a marker of civility over time in that region.

As for Europe, the "way of life" in terms of governing has changed quite recently. Going by what you suggest, why not pick the points in time where fascism was the head of political life (or death)? Or how about communism? Or why not pick the relatively backward point of view found in Medieval periods?
 
^Oops. You totally misunderstood me.

I am agreeing partially with what you say. What I meant to say: Why do Afghanis have to live like the average joe in N.A?

Did you ever hang out in an Amish 'hood? Their treatment of women is pretty backward too, yet no human rights groups are demanding their territory be invaded to "save them."

So, Taliban in Afghanistan today is as normal as putting up with the NDP in Canada: both stink; but given time, both will "get sorted." :)

1000, nor 1,000,000 Canadian troops will make a difference.
 
Did you ever hang out in an Amish 'hood? Their treatment of women is pretty backward too, yet no human rights groups are demanding their territory be invaded to "save them."

I agree that it's pretty backwards, but the women can leave. They have a choice.
 
Well, the women don't really have much choice: either leave and be excommunicated forever (that means no contact, even with their own parents or siblings) or stay and happily raise 14 children....:)

Maybe the fact they make good farmers/business men and are pacifists are the major differences between the Amish and the Taliban?
 

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