Afghanistan debate (Hillier, new troops)

[Prometheus The Supremo]

A little sensitive are we. You're brooding like a 5 year old. I really do respect your views, your intelligence and your wit Prometheus, but I was not going to let you go on Christian bashing. Especially, after the best excuse you could come up with was that it's okay to judge a billion Christians by their worst members. That's like saying it's okay to consider all Italians criminals because there's a handful who partake in organized crime. Had you been even handed and fair in your criticism of all faiths, I might have accepted the criticism of Christianity as part of a broader view of yours as an atheist that all religions are misguided. However, I saw a pattern that was worse than what many of the mods have warned Beez about regarding Beez's comments on Islam. I called you on it. Your excuse was found to be wanting. Now stop brooding and move on. You don't need to mope in every thread about how you can't bash Christians any more. I am sure you have plenty of contribute beyond diatribes against religion.

i was not bashing a billion christians based on the actions of a few. i was criticizing an institution based on its actions and a theology based on its scripture.

 

[Mot]

Mot, have you actually read the the article that you posted? Please read it carefully.


I am little curious concerning what level of progress you are expecting? Is there some sort of official measure of progress that has to be met?

Certainly some other NATO nations have been reticent or neglectful with respect to getting involved in Afghanistan, and being critical is a sure-fire way of maintaining the political means to stay out.

I cannot prove a negative. I cannot defend progress where evidence of it does not exist.

 

[kEiThZ]

This is another example of the progress we are doing in Afghanistan. We lost the people there years ago. The current strategy is not working. Other NATO nations are not supportive of the way things are being handled.

The blood-spattered bodies of two boys were on display from the open back of a small, wooden taxi as the angry crowd chanted: "Death to the Canadians."

How about reading the article first? And how about adding context?

Everytime somebody in Kandahar gets killed of anything that smacks of anything less than natural causes the entire family and occassionally the village come running up to the Canadians and accuse us of killing their loved ones. Why? Money. We pay if we killed them. We don't if it's the Taliban.

In this case, at worst it could be an accident, unexploded ordinance killing trespassers on a clearly marked training range. Or it's a Taliban attack. I suspect the second. The first is possible because the Afghans do quite often like to scrounge around on battlefields or ranges for scrap metal and explosives (which they can turn in for cash rewards). Of course, they don't like to admit that their presence on the range was illegal and that they probably ignored several signs in several languages with pictures, to get on that range.

Sadly the squeaky wheel gets the grease. We might pay something (funeral expenses, etc.) just to satisfy them. And that just means less money for some other Afghan.

Also, one should note, Canada has the strictest ROEs in theater. Collateral damage is extremely rare by Canadian forces. It is taken extremely seriously and is thoroughly investigated. Nobody should think that despite what I've explained above as the likely truth of the matter, that NIS won't do a thorough investigation.

 

[Mot]

How about reading the article first? And how about adding context?

Everytime somebody in Kandahar gets killed of anything that smacks of anything less than natural causes the entire family and occassionally the village come running up to the Canadians and accuse us of killing their loved ones. Why? Money. We pay if we killed them. We don't if it's the Taliban.

In this case, at worst it could be an accident, unexploded ordinance killing trespassers on a clearly marked training range. Or it's a Taliban attack. I suspect the second. The first is possible because the Afghans do quite often like to scrounge around on battlefields or ranges for scrap metal and explosives (which they can turn in for cash rewards). Of course, they don't like to admit that their presence on the range was illegal and that they probably ignored several signs in several languages with pictures, to get on that range.

Sadly the squeaky wheel gets the grease. We might pay something (funeral expenses, etc.) just to satisfy them. And that just means less money for some other Afghan.

Also, one should note, Canada has the strictest ROEs in theater. Collateral damage is extremely rare by Canadian forces. It is taken extremely seriously and is thoroughly investigated. Nobody should think that despite what I've explained above as the likely truth of the matter, that NIS won't do a thorough investigation.

It's simply today's dishing of more of the same sad state of affairs. The issue isn't how the children were murdered, it's the reaction to their death. They want the liberators killed! We're not winning the hearts and minds of Afghans.

Also, what sort of proof do you have in your statements about Prometheus and Christians? I don't see it in any of those conversations.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's simply today's dishing of more of the same sad state of affairs. The issue isn't how the children were murdered, it's the reaction to their death. They want the liberators killed! We're not winning the hearts and minds of Afghans.

And I would posit that this is just posturing by a few family or village members to get cash out of us. Either that or they want somebody to blame and they are scared to blame the Taliban. It's a lot easier to protest against NATO than it is to say request compensation from the Taliban.

Also, what sort of proof do you have in your statements about Prometheus and Christians? I don't see it in any of those conversations.

How many threads does he have on issues related to Christianity? Any of them positive at all? How many threads does he have related to any other religion? For an atheist, he sure cares a lot about what those believers are upto.

Either way, the topic is over and done with. Let's leave it out of this thread.

 

[Hydrogen]

I cannot prove a negative. I cannot defend progress where evidence of it does not exist.

I am curious to know what you mean by progress.

Also, am I to understand that you see absolutely no difference between the rule of the Taliban and the evolving Afghan government of today? Am I also to understand that, by any measure, the general populace of that country is no better off today than they were under the Taliban?

 

[Mot]

I am curious to know what you mean by progress.

Also, am I to understand that you see absolutely no difference between the rule of the Taliban and the evolving Afghan government of today? Am I also to understand that, by any measure, the general populace of that country is no better off today than they were under the Taliban?

It would be more beneficial for you to tell me what you think and to prove to me the measure of progress you claim has happened rather than assume (incorrectly) what I think. I respect your knowledge Hydrogen, you are very bright on many topics. I am just not seeing any proof in regards to your thoughts on Afghanistan.

 

[Mot]

And I would posit that this is just posturing by a few family or village members to get cash out of us. Either that or they want somebody to blame and they are scared to blame the Taliban. It's a lot easier to protest against NATO than it is to say request compensation from the Taliban.



How many threads does he have on issues related to Christianity? Any of them positive at all? How many threads does he have related to any other religion? For an atheist, he sure cares a lot about what those believers are upto.

Either way, the topic is over and done with. Let's leave it out of this thread.

You have seriously jaded view of Afghans who are upset over the death of slaughtered children. If this is a military point of view towards the citizens we are supposedly helping, it's really no wonder the sad state of affairs there.

You still have yet to prove what you claimed against Prometheus, unless you are able to show proof I suggest you apologize to him.

 

[urbandreamer]

Send the Amish and Mennonites to Afghanistan! Only they know how to make peace (and babies....)

 

[kEiThZ]

You have seriously jaded view of Afghans who are upset over the death of slaughtered children. If this is a military point of view towards the citizens we are supposedly helping, it's really no wonder the sad state of affairs there.

Not jaded. That's reality. And it happens not just in Afghanistan but on every peacekeeping mission and developmental mission we take part in as well. Whenever folks find it convenient to blame NATO (in this case Canadians) or UN personnel they will. It's not jaded to say that there are folks out there who will take advantage of tragedies like this. Unfortunately, life in Afghanistan has less value to them than human life does to us. Keep in mind, this is a country where parents will routinely sell off a son or two to the Taliban for a montly stipend.

We have documented many cases where village elders will claim that NATO forces killed so and so. The investigation often proves otherwise. More so with Canadians because we use some of the strictest ROEs in theater, a fact that every Canadian service person is proud of. But quite often, we'll pay anyway so avoid to tensions with the local community regardless of what the facts are. This case looks set to go the same way.

It's recently emerged that the kids were scrounging around the range looking for scrap metal. Now, if there was unsecured live ordinance on that range, it was a mistake for sure. However, that does not change the fact that these kids were killed because they were trespassing in a dangerous area. Anybody who has ever seen these ranges knows that they are clearly demarcated and have multiple barriers to entry (barbed wire, berms, constantina wire, warning signs, etc.) It takes effort to get on there. So should NATO still be held responsible if the kids were trespassing?

You still have yet to prove what you claimed against Prometheus, unless you are able to show proof I suggest you apologize to him.

1) It's quite arrogant of you to make 'suggestions' or demands given your lack of any officiating capacity on this forum.

2) You may disagree, but the mods obviously found some truth to my allegations. Your view on this issue is irrelevant at this juncture.

3) This is the second time I have told you that this is issue is irrelevant to this thread and is a closed matter. Stay on topic, please.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

1) It's quite arrogant of you to make 'suggestions' or demands given your lack of any officiating capacity on this forum.

2) You may disagree, but the mods obviously found some truth to my allegations. Your view on this issue is irrelevant at this juncture.

3) This is the second time I have told you that this is issue is irrelevant to this thread and is a closed matter. Stay on topic, please.

1) you have done the same. you demanded that threads be closed, etc. because they criticized your beliefs and that members be penalized.

2) the thread was closed because it went off topic, thanks to you and because you whined to the mods to get it closed. the mods also didn't want things to get more inflamed. that inflammation was basically your hot hotheadedness and your inability to carry out a rational conversation.

3) don't tell others to stay on topic. you are not exactly the champion of ontopicness. ie: whenever your faith was criticized in a thread pertaining to a certain subject, you tried to derail the original subject by bring up islam. you feel that it's okay to criticize another faith as long as it's not yours.

and i will add, if you believe religious movements or beliefs should not be criticized because they hold a special position in society, you have no right taking part in this thread and criticizing the taliban or any fundamentalist movement for that matter.

 

[Mot]

1) you have done the same. you demanded that threads be closed, etc. because they criticized your beliefs and that members be penalized.

2) the thread was closed because it went off topic, thanks to you and because you whined to the mods to get it closed. the mods also didn't want things to get more inflamed. that inflammation was basically your hot hotheadedness and your inability to carry out a rational conversation.

3) don't tell others to stay on topic. you are not exactly the champion of ontopicness. ie: whenever your faith was criticized in a thread pertaining to a certain subject, you tried to derail the original subject by bring up islam. you feel that it's okay to criticize another faith as long as it's not yours.

and i will add, if you believe religious movements or beliefs should not be criticized because they hold a special position in society, you have no right taking part in this thread and criticizing the taliban or any fundamentalist movement for that matter.

It is beyond amusing to see that I am merely giving Keith taste of his own medicine and he doesn't come close to realizing it. Sadly our mods are allowing him to make up incredible lies about you and when we call it out nothing happens, yet Keith gets to close threads down for less. Put up your proof Keith, this is the third time I have asked you to prove your claims against Prometheus.

 

[Mot]

Not jaded. That's reality. And it happens not just in Afghanistan but on every peacekeeping mission and developmental mission we take part in as well. Whenever folks find it convenient to blame NATO (in this case Canadians) or UN personnel they will. It's not jaded to say that there are folks out there who will take advantage of tragedies like this. Unfortunately, life in Afghanistan has less value to them than human life does to us. Keep in mind, this is a country where parents will routinely sell off a son or two to the Taliban for a montly stipend.

We have documented many cases where village elders will claim that NATO forces killed so and so. The investigation often proves otherwise. More so with Canadians because we use some of the strictest ROEs in theater, a fact that every Canadian service person is proud of. But quite often, we'll pay anyway so avoid to tensions with the local community regardless of what the facts are. This case looks set to go the same way.

It's recently emerged that the kids were scrounging around the range looking for scrap metal. Now, if there was unsecured live ordinance on that range, it was a mistake for sure. However, that does not change the fact that these kids were killed because they were trespassing in a dangerous area. Anybody who has ever seen these ranges knows that they are clearly demarcated and have multiple barriers to entry (barbed wire, berms, constantina wire, warning signs, etc.) It takes effort to get on there. So should NATO still be held responsible if the kids were trespassing?



1) It's quite arrogant of you to make 'suggestions' or demands given your lack of any officiating capacity on this forum.

2) You may disagree, but the mods obviously found some truth to my allegations. Your view on this issue is irrelevant at this juncture.

3) This is the second time I have told you that this is issue is irrelevant to this thread and is a closed matter. Stay on topic, please.

Yes I believe you soldiers refer to this as "Collateral Damage". That explanation really works well for those who lost loved ones. You seem to forget it is their country and we are tresspassing. A little respect for the people who actually own the land and live in the country could go a long way. Plus you are taking this official line as truth. I seriously doubt in the Afghan situation that this war and the way it was been handled is the means to peace. The mission is a failure for the last 7 years, the taliban warlords still rule, minorities still suffer, support for the new government is faltering, the people see us as occupiers. ABC News and The Asian Foundation Polls show decreasing trends in support for the mission.

 

[kEiThZ]

1) you have done the same. you demanded that threads be closed, etc. because they criticized your beliefs and that members be penalized.

2) the thread was closed because it went off topic, thanks to you and because you whined to the mods to get it closed. the mods also didn't want things to get more inflamed. that inflammation was basically your hot hotheadedness and your inability to carry out a rational conversation.

3) don't tell others to stay on topic. you are not exactly the champion of ontopicness. ie: whenever your faith was criticized in a thread pertaining to a certain subject, you tried to derail the original subject by bring up islam. you feel that it's okay to criticize another faith as long as it's not yours.

and i will add, if you believe religious movements or beliefs should not be criticized, you have no right taking part in this thread and criticizing the taliban or any fundamentalist movement for that matter.

Last time I will respond to this issue.

1) I complained to mods not just about one thread but by asking them to look at the pattern of threads that you had put up.

2) The thread in question that was closed had your hand in it as well. You will not accept reasonable debate on religion. And I will not countenance what I perceive as bashing of any religion. If I had any fault in the matter, yours was not any less.

3) You are again trying to paint me as a closet islamophobe. I have already explained that growing up in the Middle East for close to a third of my life, I have significant exposure to Islam and that's why I use as an example.

4) The only thread I have ever complained about was the one in question. I try very hard to stay on topic in every thread and I think my post history will show that. As for this thread...what does a previous thread closing have to do with this thread? Did I bring it up? You're moping around, now jacking other threads and Mot is enabling your rather boorish behaviour.

5) I am sincerely hoping that you have more to contribute to UT than simply bashing religion. Is the best you have to contribute in a thread about Afghanistan what happened in another thread a month ago? Are you now going to bring this up every time I ask people to stay on topic?

6) Your maturity is clearly demonstrated when you compare me to the Taliban, even going so far as to send me PMs to that effect. So apparently you consider anyone who calls you out on your bashing of faiths to be like the Taliban. And from your PM should somebody countenance your rather offensive and unbalanced views of religion they should be drummed out of the forces as well. It should be noted: I did not bring up religion in this forum. You did. And I have not brought up religion in this thread, you did. For me the Taliban are insurgents who happen to use Islam as a convenient veneer for their efforts to subjugate the Afghan people. I don't care about them being muslim. I only care about them trying to kill Afghans and my buddies in the field.

 

[Hydrogen]

It would be more beneficial for you to tell me what you think and to prove to me the measure of progress you claim has happened rather than assume (incorrectly) what I think. I respect your knowledge Hydrogen, you are very bright on many topics. I am just not seeing any proof in regards to your thoughts on Afghanistan.

I've indicated some examples in post #156. But honestly, do you really believe that there has been no progress of any kind in Afghanistan whatsoever? Again, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by progress (or the lack thereof).