Afghanistan debate (Hillier, new troops)

[Hydrogen]

I understand that you disagree with me but I really don't understand your comment.

This war is going badly because NATO has never known what direction to take. Any "road" they have taken leads to the wrong place as apparent in this failed war. Obama is a bright guy and he will figure this out but lets hope it's sooner rather than later. His comments of late that allude to war not being the answer in solving the problem of Afghanistan gives me hope. It's far too late for NATO to save face on this war adventure!

jade_lee, are you an isolationist? I'd like to know.

If you are an isolationist, you should refrain from ever complaining about what goes on in other countries because your political stance suggests that you would do nothing to solve those problems.

At least if you proclaim to be an isolationist, one could put in the effort to try to respect your position. Just say something along the lines that you are just fine with Afghans living (or dying) at the will of the warlord of the month, or be utterly unaffected by females being denied of the most basic human rights, and not be the least bit concerned about a religious dictatorship proclaiming for itself the absolute right to rule as it alone sees fit.

If you don't like those positions, tell us what could be done to stop these and other things in that country?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

afghanistan needs a 1960's style feminism uprising with burqa burnings, tit flashing, lesbian experimentation and nude marches. gangs of women need to abduct abusive men and take turns kicking them in the nuts like as if it's some sort of eugenics program sponsored by the latest footwear company. and while all this is going on, larry flynt hires planes to drop pornography leaflets throughout the land and the food supply is deliberately contaminated with LSD and all the repressed homosexuals have sex with each other on copies of religious texts while terrorists are tied to poles, their eyelids sewn open and forced to watch.

 

[Mot]

And what pray tell do you have in mind for the Afghans after we leave. So your plan is that we hand over the Afghan people back to the Taliban. Beheadings, no education for girls, harbouring terrorism is okay with you. Got it.



We aren't tag teaming you here. We all think you're nuts. It's just that simple. If you actually read our other posts, you'll notice we all disgaree on many topics. But when it comes to your posts, there's unanimity that's very rare here on UT.

Here is your problem, after 7 years of your militaristic solution the Taliban is still in control, girls still are not getting educated and terrorists are harboured now in Pakistan. I simply do not agree with you that there has been progess, sure in Kabul but not across the nation. Your way isn't working and throwing in more money and troops in Afghanistan is doing the same thing that has given no results. I don't agree with your tactic and you might want to refrain from the "people like you" comments.

Neither you nor I are experts on nation building, it's why we're a posting here rather than being the people in charge of these decisions.

Your Darfur comments are bizarre in comparison to your defense of the Afghan strategy.

 

[Mot]

Hydrogen, I am not advocating pulling out of Afghanistan completely. I want us to help anyone in the world who lives under oppression. I am just not seeing progress in Afghanistan. There is a great amount of distrust towards the West because we've propped up tryannies far too many times. When the Afghan population wants us out and do not see us as helping, then we are doing something wrong.

"There has been a downturn in relations between the two countries, with President Hamid Karzai complaining Saturday about "civilian casualties, arrests of Afghans, nightly raids on homes and the casualties they cause."

 

[Mot]

So remind me again why you are on UT if all you are gonna do is spout gibberish like this. Shouldn't you be at an anti-war rally or on some ultra-leftie love convention or blog? You aren't really contributing anything here and the more you post the more you lower credibility.

Moderators, I believe this post is against the code of conduct.

 

[kEiThZ]

Moderators, I believe this post is against the code of conduct.

Care to explain which portion of the code of conduct I have broken? It's not a personal attack on jade_lee. Several folks in the thread have considered his/her posts non-sensical. He/she has admitted to being ultra left and he/she has not contributed to any other topics significantly. So have I pointed out anything that's wrong?

If the Mods find it disagreeable, I will certainly apologize. Otherwise, I will challenge someone who repeatedly puts up posts bordering on trolling.

 

[kEiThZ]

Hydrogen, I am not advocating pulling out of Afghanistan completely. I want us to help anyone in the world who lives under oppression. I am just not seeing progress in Afghanistan. There is a great amount of distrust towards the West because we've propped up tryannies far too many times. When the Afghan population wants us out and do not see us as helping, then we are doing something wrong.

"There has been a downturn in relations between the two countries, with President Hamid Karzai complaining Saturday about "civilian casualties, arrests of Afghans, nightly raids on homes and the casualties they cause."

There's no doubt some changes need to be made to this mission, not in the least, the need for more US attention. Many of those changes will be coming under the Obama administration. Does that mean we should just pull out? Let's say it wasn't Afghanistan. Let's say we got into Darfur and the mission stagnated, should we then pull out too? What about the Congo? The UN has tens of thousands of troops there, it's been going on for decades and looks no closer to any resolution than Afghanistan. Should we pull out there too because there's no progress there? If we start pulling out every time progress stagnates, we'd be ending just about every peacekeeping/peacemaking mission within a few months to a few years with no significant impact made. Now, I am cool with that policy as long as those who advocate it, call it what it is. As Hydrogen rightly pointed out, that's isolationism. If we want to go down that road, let's have it as a principled stance applying to any and all foreign interventions. Being selective in our application of isolationism is immoral (we value some lives less) and cowardly (we don't want any missions that are difficult).

 

[Mot]

Care to explain which portion of the code of conduct I have broken? It's not a personal attack on jade_lee. Several folks in the thread have considered his/her posts non-sensical. He/she has admitted to being ultra left and he/she has not contributed to any other topics significantly. So have I pointed out anything that's wrong?

If the Mods find it disagreeable, I will certainly apologize. Otherwise, I will challenge someone who repeatedly puts up posts bordering on trolling.

Considering you had threads on religion shut down for less than what you said to Jade Lee, I would think you would get it.

 

[Hydrogen]

Hydrogen, I am not advocating pulling out of Afghanistan completely. I want us to help anyone in the world who lives under oppression. I am just not seeing progress in Afghanistan. There is a great amount of distrust towards the West because we've propped up tryannies far too many times. When the Afghan population wants us out and do not see us as helping, then we are doing something wrong.

Mot, I just want to be sure that you understand how difficult it is to help the populace of a country that is otherwise "under oppression." Typically, such governments view foreign aid as undermining its authority and control. That is why aid efforts so often fail when introduced into oppressive dictatorships. The governments want to control the aid efforts, and that means their allies get the aid. That way, an unhappy and weak populace will remain weak, ineffectual and of no threat to that government.

As for Afghanistan, that there now exists the basic structure of a civil government to complain about certain actions of the security forces is a step forward. That this government is expected to have views of its own is a step forward. That civilian casualties are both viewed and publicly expressed as errors or excesses is a step forward. That an recognized Afghan government is in contact with many governments around the world and discussing its situation is a step forward. That access to schools and medical aid grows everyday is a step forward. That an Afghan legal system is slowly evolving is a step forward. That basic infrastructure is gradually being rebuilt is a step forward.

There is more that I could say, but I'm not sure it would be convincing to people who take a view that there can be nothing productive from having security forces and Western aid being brought into Afghanistan. I do know one thing: we do receive much more in the way of news about negatives rather than positives. If Western security forces left tomorrow, you can be sure that the many of the same people who complained about Western soldiers being in Afghanistan would be complaining about how civilians would be suffering from such a pull-out. Some people just can't be satisfied.

To say that there is only a distrust for the West in Afghanistan is to greatly overstate one point of view. There is also a great deal of support for Western intervention in Afghanistan within that country, and great concern over what will happen when Western troops eventually leave.

 

[kEiThZ]

Considering you had threads on religion shut down for less than what you said to Jade Lee, I would think you would get it.

The difference is that I was not trolling (I challenged statements that I found to be personally offensive and views that were unbalanced and unfair) and I do engage in more than one thread. Jade comes on here once a month to essentially put up a link in this thread and make rather simplistic and non-sensical debate. He/she does not respond to any of the challenges that other posters put forward, lets about a month pass (during which this thread is usually dormant) and does it all over again. That's pretty much trolling.

Notice, that nobody here has criticized you for instance, though many of us do not share your views. That's because you engage in substantive debates. Jade_lee doesn't…and he/she should be called out for it.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Considering you had threads on religion shut down for less than what you said to Jade Lee, I would think you would get it.

mot, you're wrong. when religion is attached to anything, you're not allowed to question it because it is something special and people's feelings can be hurt. also, religion is something that is personal and in no way effects the public in any way so it is not to be discussed in public and anyone that does criticize any religious belief is a bigot.

also, i'd ask that nobody criticize the united states since it is a religious aspect of the john frum movement and nobody criticize the taliban since it is a religious movement as well. any beliefs or actions of these groups need to be respected and tolerated, not criticized in any way whatsoever.

 

[Mot]

mot, you're wrong. when religion is attached to anything, you're not allowed to question it because it is something special and people's feelings can be hurt. also, religion is something that is personal and in no way effects the public in any way so it is not to be discussed in public and anyone that does criticize any religious belief is a bigot.

also, i'd ask that nobody criticize the united states since it is a religious aspect of the john frum movement and nobody criticize the taliban since it is a religious movement as well. any beliefs or actions of these groups need to be respected and tolerated, not criticized in any way whatsoever.

I forgot, thanks for the reminder.

 

[Mot]

This is another example of the progress we are doing in Afghanistan. We lost the people there years ago. The current strategy is not working. Other NATO nations are not supportive of the way things are being handled.

The blood-spattered bodies of two boys were on display from the open back of a small, wooden taxi as the angry crowd chanted: "Death to the Canadians."

 

[Hydrogen]

This is another example of the progress we are doing in Afghanistan. We lost the people there years ago. The current strategy is not working. Other NATO nations are not supportive of the way things are being handled.

Mot, have you actually read the the article that you posted? Please read it carefully.


I am little curious concerning what level of progress you are expecting? Is there some sort of official measure of progress that has to be met?

Certainly some other NATO nations have been reticent or neglectful with respect to getting involved in Afghanistan, and being critical is a sure-fire way of maintaining the political means to stay out.

 

[kEiThZ]

mot, you're wrong. when religion is attached to anything, you're not allowed to question it because it is something special and people's feelings can be hurt. also, religion is something that is personal and in no way effects the public in any way so it is not to be discussed in public and anyone that does criticize any religious belief is a bigot.

also, i'd ask that nobody criticize the united states since it is a religious aspect of the john frum movement and nobody criticize the taliban since it is a religious movement as well. any beliefs or actions of these groups need to be respected and tolerated, not criticized in any way whatsoever.

A little sensitive are we. You're brooding like a 5 year old. I really do respect your views, your intelligence and your wit Prometheus, but I was not going to let you go on Christian bashing. Especially, after the best excuse you could come up with was that it's okay to judge a billion Christians by their worst members. That's like saying it's okay to consider all Italians criminals because there's a handful who partake in organized crime. Had you been even handed and fair in your criticism of all faiths, I might have accepted the criticism of Christianity as part of a broader view of yours as an atheist that all religions are misguided. However, I saw a pattern that was worse than what many of the mods have warned Beez about regarding Beez's comments on Islam. I called you on it. Your excuse was found to be wanting. Now stop brooding and move on. You don't need to mope in every thread about how you can't bash Christians any more. I am sure you have plenty of contribute beyond diatribes against religion.