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A place to live downtown — with the kids

ClubLand died around 2005 .......

That article is specific to Circa and it's target market and ambitions probably aren't suited to the Entertainment District as are the numerous mainstream clubs that make up the bulk of the Entertainment District. The club district's success as a whole isn't dying, albeit there are a number of issues related to it..


The club district is changing. It is losing the big clubs, and gaining smaller venues and restaurants. The entertainment district peaked around 2002.

I have worked there for 17 years and it is definitely a shadow of what it was despite the alarmist media.
 
The club district is changing. It is losing the big clubs, and gaining smaller venues and restaurants. The entertainment district peaked around 2002.

I have worked there for 17 years and it is definitely a shadow of what it was despite the alarmist media.

Good. It needs to move on from what it was.
 
^^ out of touch much?

it's not exactly an 'open' market on the island...

have 50 years to wait?
 
Families with children living in condominiums in central areas is common in most major cities around the world. The notion that a family with children belongs only in a suburban single detached dwelling is indeed a very american one that was popularized after WWII in the US. As the world faces the new challenges of the 21st Century ( such as global warming), this notion it looks more and more outdated.
 
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Lotsa families with 2 kids or so live in my area--the rental apartments of High Park. They seem to be quite happy here. Talk to any of the parents though, and they're all saving money for a down payment on a house...in the suburbs. It's cheaper, and they love the idea of living in brand new homes. Ultimately, I agree with them--rather save some money and be able to afford other things--saving money for the kids' education, buying a second property/cottage, enjoying life.... Only the very well off can afford to raise children in downtown condos (purchased at today's prices.)

As cars become increasingly hybrid, non dependence on the price of gas will, I predict, lead to further suburban growth. Or even small little villages further from the GTA growing.
 
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Lotsa families with 2 kids or so live in my area--the rental apartments of High Park. They seem to be quite happy here. Talk to any of the parents though, and they're all saving money for a down payment on a house...in the suburbs. It's cheaper, and they love the idea of living in brand new homes. Ultimately, I agree with them--rather save some money and be able to afford other things--saving money for the kids' education, buying a second property/cottage, enjoying life.... Only the very well off can afford to raise children in downtown condos (purchased at today's prices.)

This is true, a lot of families in the city are saving up for something better. But I think part of the problem is that they're stuck in apartments. Who wants to pay rent every month and have nothing to show at the end, when those monthly payments could be towards a mortgage and future home ownership? Affordable condos are going to be key to keeping people in the city.

But it is true that the market is pushing families out of the city. However, dropping 600K on a house is not totally uncommon in today's Toronto. If we develop a culture of having families in these condos, like they have in New York and in European cities, then maybe we can convince more families to stay in the city.

I just don't know if Adam Vaughn's idea of forcing developers to build these units will help bring that culture shift...
 
They seem to be quite happy here. Talk to any of the parents though, and they're all saving money for a down payment on a house...in the suburbs.
That doesn't seem to make sense. They are all happy, but they are planning to move to the suburbs?
 
IMO one of the incorrect thoughts is that the burbs are truly cheaper. Two of my good friends moved out to Ajax, because it was "cheaper" I decided to stay in the city. Sure the house was cheaper $390,000 for a new-ish 3 bedroom on a large lot VS my 1920 3 bedroom on a large lot for $505000. Sure the mortgage is cheaper, by about $400 a month. but then they needed an extra car because it was taking his wife over a hour an a half on the GO + a short TTC ride (not to mention it like $10 each way) so now they bought a second car, plus insurance and gas ( there goes that $400 difference) now they both commute about an hour on a good day or two hours on a bad one both ways. What does your time cost? My commute is about 20 minutes and my wife takes the 501 from leslieville to yonge ( about 20 minutes) I leave work at 4:30 I'm home with the kids picked up from daycare and cooking dinner by 5:05. He gets home by 6:30, feeds the kids, bath them puts them to bed, where is this better life for kids? His taxes are $3700 per year VS my $2600 ( i know i know this is about to change) User fees are killer there, over $100 for swimming lessons? in toronto $39. My son plays in the park across the street with tons of other kids, his kids play in the backyard by themselves or they drive to the near empty park so the kids can play by themselves yet again. So really when you look at the quality of life for both the adults and the kids, the "real" difference in money spent and then the re-sale value of your home I think it's a no-brainer, the burbs are hardly the deal people say it is. I can't wait to hear him bitch once they are teens and want to go to the mall etc., have fun driving everywhere, my kids will get a metro pass.
 
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They have property tax increases in Ajax too, BTW. Higher than Toronto over the last few years. I'd think a lot of people would have to buy a second car to move to the suburbs - and perhaps even more if they have older kids.
 
I just don't know if Adam Vaughn's idea of forcing developers to build these units will help bring that culture shift...

The point of building more family units means that in the long term, those units will be available and it will be possible for a family to live there.

The demand and culture shift will be there I'm sure. Many of the people in their 20s & 30s who live downtown will get used to that lifestyle and will want it to continue with their children. There needs to be options available. With that said, the opportunities for owning those units becomes more difficult when you look at a professional couple in the late 20s starting a family who perhaps make $100k a year. Right now, if they want to buy a unit downtown and have a family, that becomes near impossible. Try looking on mls for a 2 bed + den or 3 bed unit under $450k.

It's not surprising that developers are balking at the proposed policy, as they will likely have a difficult time to sell those units, because purchasing a unit pre-construction for a family is difficult (family situation may change in 5 years and there are few couples who can put up that kind of cash for a downpayment and know what their employment situation will be to afford said unit when finished, etc).

The other issue is time, which is huge. I'd much rather live downtown and have a short commute allowing me more time with my family with a smaller, but livable condo/apartment (say, 1100 sq ft) than have a large suburban house with a yard and have to spend all that time driving back and forth from work.
 
The other issue is time, which is huge. I'd much rather live downtown and have a short commute allowing me more time with my family with a smaller, but livable condo/apartment (say, 1100 sq ft) than have a large suburban house with a yard and have to spend all that time driving back and forth from work.

But you have to be careful not to generalize. Just because that's what you want, doesn't mean that's what everyone wants. Clearly development trends have shown that that's not the case, or we wouldn't have sprawl in the first place.

The challenge is to get more people interested in living in the city. And I just don't think that building the condos wihtout that interest is the best way to go. I guess it comes down to a question of economics - should we force up supply without the appropriate demand, or should be try to increase demand, so that supply follows?
 
There are plenty of condos that were built in the 80's & early 90's - large to very large two and three bedrooms - that can be purchased downtown for $400K or less. I just don't buy this argument about downtown being a bad place to raise a family and live happily.
 

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