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A place to live downtown — with the kids

I agree that it's one thing to say and another thing to do. Discussions like this one help keep the ideas flowing!

Affordable options for families downtown will likely need some financial creativity and provincial policy help. Some options are being done over at the new Regent Park development. See: http://www.itracphp.com/nathan/daniels/onecole/page01.html

This program is limited to families with an annual income below $75,800. For other new builds in other areas of the city perhaps there can be a similar program extended with adjusted incentives for more middle income earners, with a cap at say, $100,000.

I think that it is important to keep building larger units in new buildings. We have seen in Toronto what happens with transit when the city and province stop building subways/streetcar/LRT lines for long periods of time. We're playing catch up now.

Instead of spending years and years doing studies and assessments, in Ward 20 Adam Vaughan has helped develop more units. He's still looking for answers on making them affordable, but at least something is starting.

From a recent mass email to from him: "I promised to find a way to build more family housing in the ward. In the last four years we have approved more than 700 new family housing units. That's eight times more housing for families than was delivered in the last decade. This is real and lasting change. Now we need to work together to find a way to ensure more of these homes are affordable."
 
I agree... but how do you achieve that when there is limited supply and a demand that surpasess that supply?
It's easy to do the affordable housing, but how do you do the 'mid' level homes?

It sounds great to have this message of sustainability , 'diversity is our strength', but then, there is the the reality of 600k homes in the core. I'd be curious to hear some ideas on how you would achieve that. There is preaching, and then there is what you can actually do.
A detached house in Riverdale is not more expensive than a house in Mississauga. Smaller, yes, but more than big enough for a 4-person family.


Well I've lived downtown my entire life and can tell you that you do need a car, only at times though. I hate driving, but when you make the trip to home depot, grocery shopping for a family of 4, bringing kids tot he swiming pool, life is easier if you have a car.

Ever heard of Autoshare? Zipcar?
 
Wouldn't "downtown" depend on what one's definition of "downtown" is?

Some think of downtown as being in a high-rise condominium tower, others may think of stacked townhouses, others think of the date of the home when it was built. Victorian, 1920's, 1930's, pre-WWII, post-WWII, etc.

For example, Weston incorporated as a village in 1881. making it older than some houses in "downtown". Yet, it was considered a suburb for many years.

Maybe, if the home is walkable, that is what makes it a "downtown" home. So there are homes in the "suburbs" that are "downtown", because one does not need a car to do errands, work, school, etc..
 
Denser neighbourhoods tend to have a lot of the things that suburban parents drive their kids to in a smaller area. Walking and transit are lot more viable. Maybe not in every case, but it's wrong to believe that in order for raising a family downtown to be possible and attractive, the suburban parent lifestyle has to be replicated.
 
The Revised Official Plan Amendment to Encourage the Development of Units for Households with Children will be discussed at the June 16 Planning & Growth Management Committee Meeting.

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2010/pg/agendas/2010-06-16-pg39-ai.htm

The report is a very, very thorough analysis of family housing downtown.

PDF of the report with amendments: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2010/pg/bgrd/backgroundfile-30751.pdf

It looks like 5% will be the recommended target. From the report:

Over the last few years a number of rezonings for new developments in Ward 20 have
been approved with one of the conditions being that 10 percent of their units have three
or more bedrooms. A few of these developments have employed innovative design
features such as changeable floor plans and knock-out panels to allow some units to be
adapted for different household sizes over time.

This 10 percent requirement, with certain qualifications, has also been proposed in the
past two planning reports on the subject. An earlier report, prepared in August 2008, also
examined a number of data sources to determine the appropriateness of using the 10
percent figure as part of an Official Plan Amendment. It showed that, based on the 2006
Census data, units with three or more bedrooms made up about 9 percent of the total
dwellings in buildings with 5 and more storeys. This represents a snapshot of the
percentage of larger units occupied at that time. Staff is of the opinion that additional
data, if generated, would reveal that three-bedroom units comprised a greater percentage
of the total units prior to 2006, and a lesser percentage after that point due to the trend
toward the construction of smaller units. As such, this figure would be lower than 9
percent, if more recent development activity and tenure were considered.

Another relevant source of information was City Planning’s “Living Downtown” study
highlighted in the November 2007 and August 2008 Planning reports. The study,
undertaken in December 2006, surveyed downtown residents to find out more about the
nature of the population and the reasons for living in the area. Details of the survey
results can be found at: http://www.toronto.ca/planning/pdf/living_downtown_nov1.pdf
Among other matters, the study examined occupancy patterns of households living in
newer housing (built in and after 2001) and more established housing (built before 2001)
in the Downtown. The study showed that only about 7 percent of all households in the
newer stock lived in units with three or more bedrooms, whereas 15 percent of
households in the more established stock resided in larger units. Although the survey
involved various structure types, the vast majority of units analyzed were in apartment
buildings with 5 or more storeys.

In terms of sales activity, the August 2008 report provided data for new condominiums
sold from 2002 to 2007 (as reported by Urbanation). It indicated that, excluding
penthouses, three-bedroom units comprised less than 2 percent of all unit sales.
When looking at active applications in the development pipeline (from 2003 to 2007), it
was found that 4.1 percent of all proposed residential units in the downtown area
consisted of three-bedrooms. For apartment developments only, this figure decreased
slightly to 3.8 percent.

During the preliminary consultation process, referenced in the May 2009 report, one
developer indicated that many of the projects he has worked on contain about 5 percent
of a combination of two-bedroom plus den and three-bedroom units. Recent sales data
shows that a reasonable number of new developments are offering more than 5 percent of
their units as a combination of two-bedrooms with den/solarium, two-storey lofts, three-
bedrooms and penthouses. Also, in the Waterfront area (e.g. East Bayfront), contractual
arrangements are made with private developers on public land to ensure that 5 percent of
units contain three or more bedrooms.

Residents’ and ratepayers’ associations have vocalized significant support for the recently
proposed policy which recommended that 10 percent of units be set aside in larger
projects for units suitable for households with children. One comment suggested that the
policy should be amended to target up to 20 percent of units for this purpose.
The previous draft amendment proposed that 10 percent of the units be built with three or
more bedrooms, but allowed the option of convertible units. To recognize the
development industry’s concerns, yet provide some incentive for the initial construction
of three-bedroom units, staff has now reduced the proposed requirement for three-
bedroom units to 5 percent. This figure, while typically higher than the percentage of
three-bedroom units provided in new developments, is considered by staff to be
achievable with refinements to products now being offered.

The 10 percent requirement should remain in place where the convertible option is
preferred by the developer. An additional option involving combinable units (knock-out
panels) is discussed later in this report.

Proposed Direction: That the percentage of units to be constructed with three or more
bedrooms under the policy be reduced to 5 percent, and that the 10 percent requirement
continue to apply where the option of convertible units is chosen. The discussion on
knock-out panels later in this report also suggests a further possible option, with a
greater percentage requirement, where combinable units using “knock-out panels” are
preferred.



And a section on financial incentives:

The policy amendment as proposed is concerned with stimulating the development of
these units, first and foremost. Staff believes that this can be accomplished through the 5
percent requirement that may, in some cases, be achievable through adjustments in
condominium products now being designed and constructed. The policy also offers
greater flexibility as it provides developers with the alternative choices of using either
convertible or combinable suites. Although these options involve some additional cost in
terms of design and marketing, these costs should not be prohibitive. Furthermore,
increasing the range of consumer choice should also improve the marketability of these
projects.

Use of funds secured through the application of Section 37 of the Planning Act has been
raised by BILD and others as a means of improving the affordability of these units.
However these funds, although not typically substantial in amount relative to the value of
the density/height increase, are used for a variety of other important purposes. Some of
these include the provision of community services and facilities considered desirable to
maintaining and attracting family households.

In their submission, BILD also recommended that development charges for three-
bedroom units be reduced. This reduction could be offered to the developer to lower the
costs of producing three-bedroom units. Alternatively, the reduced development charge
could be passed on directly to the consumer where two combinable suites are purchased
as one larger suite.

In previous reports, staff has mentioned that the development charge now levied for a
three or four-bedroom unit is the same as it is for two bedrooms, so there is currently no
disincentive to building larger units. Any decrease in development charges could
conceivably be achieved through unit reconfigurations at the outset of the project, prior to
the issuance of a building permit. In the example cited by BILD, some smaller units
could be amalgamated at the initial purchasers’ request during pre-sales, so that they
would be treated as one rather than two units for the purposes of assigning a development
charge.

There is an inherent difficulty associated with diverting limited public funds generated
through Section 37 or development charges to expensive housing, when so many lower
income people are not adequately housed. These limited funds are required to contribute
to a number of other important affordable housing and community services and
infrastructure needs.

An additional concern associated with providing financial incentives is that families with
children may not necessarily occupy these units. This proposal does not attempt to dictate
occupancy, but rather is designed to facilitate the construction of a greater range of
housing choice that includes larger, three-bedrooms which could be used by larger
households with children.

Expanding the range of housing opportunities is itself an important goal. This is a
principle espoused in the Provincial Policy Statement, the Growth Plan for the Greater
Golden Horseshoe, and the City’s Official Plan policies. As such, the provision of a
variety of housing opportunities, including a range of unit types, is a matter of good
planning.

Proposed Direction: That no financial incentives be provided to encourage three-
bedroom units.
 
Most elementary schools have a playground for the students to use during recess. If a school's playground is closer than a park's playground, I would make use of the playground off-school hours. While I may not use the playground for my young ones while school in in session, has anyone else used the facilities while there are students in their classrooms?
 
A detached house in Riverdale is not more expensive than a house in Mississauga. Smaller, yes, but more than big enough for a 4-person family.

Ooh.. I don't know about that....Riverdalte homes start at 600k and that's not detached... not sure about detached homes in Missisauga, but I'm looking at 600k Min... and those require renovations, if you want similiar finishes, etc, you're looking at 750 ball park.
 
IMO one of the incorrect thoughts is that the burbs are truly cheaper. Two of my good friends moved out to Ajax, because it was "cheaper" I decided to stay in the city. Sure the house was cheaper $390,000 for a new-ish 3 bedroom on a large lot VS my 1920 3 bedroom on a large lot for $505000. Sure the mortgage is cheaper, by about $400 a month. but then they needed an extra car because it was taking his wife over a hour an a half on the GO + a short TTC ride (not to mention it like $10 each way) so now they bought a second car, plus insurance and gas ( there goes that $400 difference) now they both commute about an hour on a good day or two hours on a bad one both ways. What does your time cost? My commute is about 20 minutes and my wife takes the 501 from leslieville to yonge ( about 20 minutes) I leave work at 4:30 I'm home with the kids picked up from daycare and cooking dinner by 5:05. He gets home by 6:30, feeds the kids, bath them puts them to bed, where is this better life for kids? His taxes are $3700 per year VS my $2600 ( i know i know this is about to change) User fees are killer there, over $100 for swimming lessons? in toronto $39. My son plays in the park across the street with tons of other kids, his kids play in the backyard by themselves or they drive to the near empty park so the kids can play by themselves yet again. So really when you look at the quality of life for both the adults and the kids, the "real" difference in money spent and then the re-sale value of your home I think it's a no-brainer, the burbs are hardly the deal people say it is. I can't wait to hear him bitch once they are teens and want to go to the mall etc., have fun driving everywhere, my kids will get a metro pass.
You don't have to move out to Ajax for "cheaper".

I had the choice of moving to a place that was a 15 minute commute vs. 25-30 minute commute. I chose the latter, but it's still well within Toronto (Scarborough Bluffs), and I get a much larger lot and a large modern home. (I didn't want to deal with a 100-year old home, unless it had already had been completely renovated.) The main annoyance is it takes me longer to cut the grass than it would for a lot half the size. ;)
 
Short of interfering with the market on a massive scale, what effective policies could there be to maintain the affordability of houses (not homes - but houses) in the inner city? I can only think of a few options (e.g. encourage laneway housing) but none will produce a large enough supply or the type of homes one would find in the suburbs. That's reality. And speaking of the lack of attention to the middle-market - are you willing to have the state involved in the production of housing for this segment of the population? We don't really have a history of doing so, unlike say, the Netherlands and their national planning/housing program (VINEX). Be careful what you wish for.

AoD
 
^One way bus ticket to downtown Hamilton, with pre-approved mortgage in hand to buy a cheap Hamilton crack house, plus a $20,000 loan to renovate the property. Much cheaper than building affordable housing in Toronto. Also would work in Brantford, Sarnia, Windsor etc.
 
Please, show me which Mississauga detached is in better condition at $335k??

that's what I'm saying...

A.. that house is not detached.
b. what was the final price.
c. home is on arterial rd.


I'm saying that that home you showed me is not the norm.. it would be the equivelent of me showing you a 1.2 million home and making my point that Riverdale is not affordable.

it's an anomoly... besides the fact that it's nto detached, and is on an arterial rd....

pictures are also very misleading FYI.
 

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