407 Transitway

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Maybe it's just summer silly season creeping up on me, but I can't help but wonder: how much extra would it cost to add an adjacent separated bikeway?

As it is they have mostly been squeezed out of the actual 407 ROW, which was originally being saved for BRT.

For what it's worth, York Region's Transportation Master Plan (awaiting official approval) does include bike lanes along Hwy. 7. along most of this 23 km first stretch. Sometimes they are on-road lanes and sometimes off-road boulevards, depending where you are.

 

[doady]

Only 5 stations between Jane and Unionville? That's disappointing. Buses don't have to stop at all stations (if the busway is 4 lanes wide at the stations), so there is no need for so few stations...

In comparision, the Mississauga Transitway will only be half the length of the 407 Transitway and it will have almost twice as many stations. And it will still be usable by GO.

 

[unimaginative2]

There will be a parallel busway along Highway 7 for local service.

 

[Brian69]

nm

 

[kettal]

These stations look like they're designed for park & riders only. I have to question the logic in not going into Vaughan and Markham centres. If they're building the new lanes anyways, why not build them to real destinations?

 

[RedRocket191]

These stations look like they're designed for park & riders only. I have to question the logic in not going into Vaughan and Markham centres. If they're building the new lanes anyways, why not build them to real destinations?

You have to look at the Transitway like a road and only a road - not as a service pattern. Buses will be able to enter and leave the corridor at multiple points. For example, a bus could start it's run in Mount Joy, snake it's way to Markham then use the transitway to get to the subway. This is why Ottawa's Transitway is so useful.

 

[Disparishun]

Am I understanding correctly that VIVA and other buses will run on the parallel 7 busway (with more local service) and that the separate and non-overlapping 407 Transitway will be used only by longer-haul buses with wider stop spacing?

If so, colour me dubious. Surely there is merit in colocating the express stops with the local stops nearest to them? There are various advantages to this. One is hubbing -- a grab bag that, in particular, includes easy transfer between express and local. Another is aggregation -- riders for whom it makes sense should be able to opt for the local bus that is coming right now, rather than be restricted to the option of waiting for the next express bus they just missed.

 

[ShonTron]

Yep. Imagine the confused newbie public transit rider.

"Downtown Markham? You want the local busway, this is the express busway. Go up the stairs, cross the overpass (be careful), cross the on-ramp, go over the next bridge, descend the stairs, walk over to the lights, and to the centre of the street. That's the local busway.

"Or did you want Markham Village? Well, then..."

 

[xtremesniper]

To this day, I still don't understand why there is no transit emphasis on Warden and Highway 7. I understand that the corner is currently not very developed on the south-east side, but every other corner is actually a destination.

South-West side? Hotel and fitness club, conference centre.
North-West side? Markham Civic Centre, Markham Theatre, Unionville High
North-East side? A gigantic plaza that, while car oriented, still has plenty of shops that would be useful to people who want to take transit as well.

But no, instead the transitways skip Warden, and Viva turns off Highway 7 at Town Centre Blvd as if there's a good reason to take a "short cut" behind the Hilton. There isn't even a stop there!

</rant>

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that this transitway is not going to be the start and end for any routes. A route will start at Markham Center, and travel down to the transitway to continue its journey once it's out of the "urban" area. You won't have to take local service to get there. That would be pathetic.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I think the idea is that people will mostly be changing from the 407 to 7 lines at the big intermodal stops, particularly at Yonge and the Spadina Subway.

I forget the exact numbers but I think they said something like 80% of people coming from Markham are expected to get off at Yonge and even more are people from the west are expected to exit at the Spadina stop.

I think obviously Viva and the Tway will be adjusted to serve each other but the MTO planner said they were planning 11 stations and knocked it down to 7 because of Viva.

It was clear that the concept is the vast majority of people getting on/off the 407 Transitway are connecting to other transit services and there will be relatively little walk-on. Hence, I'm sure they'll make it relatively seamless to get from 7 to 407. We're only at the EA stage now but how to build the intermodal facility is already a big debate at Yonge/7.

The 407 Transitway can't divert much from its ROW. I know the Viva line breaks away from Warden because it will be running through the middle of the Downtown Markham development. I gather that in the long term they want to figure out something more efficient there than what they have now but they want to the 407 line to run as straight and fast as possible (hence the problems at Yonge).

I understand what Shontron is saying about transit newbies but I think that says more about our culture here than the complexity of the system. Anyone who has been in a New York subway station knows that things can be much more complicated. A visiting Newbie might get on an express train instead of a local running on the same track and end up in totally the wrong place, to say nothing of ending up on the wrong train line entirely...it's early days here so far.

 

[nfitz]

I think the idea is that people will mostly be changing from the 407 to 7 lines at the big intermodal stops, particularly at Yonge and the Spadina Subway.

For Spadina though, won't this transitway service go to the "Highway 407 Station" and the 7 line would go to the Vaughan Corporate Centre Station" at the corner of Jane and 7. So one would have to change from the 407 BRT, to the subway one stop, the the Highway 7 service. I'm starting to wonder how well this has all been thought out ...

 

[doady]

I can see the point of a transitway along Highway 7 where there is no overlapping 407 transitway (i.e east of Bayview). Otherwise, the Highway 7 buses could simply just use the 407 Transitway, which should have more stations and bypass lanes at each station so that local and express services do not interfere with each other.

I just don't think that Highway 7/407 between Keele and Bayview will be busy enough to have two overalpping busways. That's just crazy...

 

[xtremesniper]

I missed the information session about this tonight. Did anyone go? Was there any new/interesting information?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Yep. Imagine the confused newbie public transit rider.

"Downtown Markham? You want the local busway, this is the express busway. Go up the stairs, cross the overpass (be careful), cross the on-ramp, go over the next bridge, descend the stairs, walk over to the lights, and to the centre of the street. That's the local busway.

"Or did you want Markham Village? Well, then..."

Haha

To everyone wondering about the point of the Transitway, when most of it will run very close to Highway 7 and Viva purple, I see two or three important functions it will serve.

First of all is the obvious, it will provide faster service, and will connect many different hubs directly, with it's own 407 transitway route.

Second is that other regional bus routes can use the transitway to improve their travel times considerably (I do assume) By bypassing a highway like this, travel times could be significantly reduced. If you ask me, anything that gives a better right of way than regular car travel will attract more people, even if that includes using a right of way for only part of the trip.

Third is special to Viva Purple. Viva Purple busses could use the Transitway to easily get back to the start of their route during rush hour, as using the bus right of ways doesn't work very well when other busses will be blocking it's path to the start while doing their regular service.


That was just a way of me saying that I love this project. I assume there are plans to extend it into Peel and Durham after the smaller stretch gets completed and started? Also, what's the price tag on this stretch?

What do you people think the feasibility of running it LRT-style, paved, but with new Go trains, such as maybe the Talent? So it could have higher capacity on the route itself, but also allow it to run as a bus ROW.


Sorry for that very sloppy monster of a post, but I'm interested in this project, and I'd like to know the details. Thanks for bearing with it

 

[scarberiankhatru]

To this day, I still don't understand why there is no transit emphasis on Warden and Highway 7. I understand that the corner is currently not very developed on the south-east side, but every other corner is actually a destination.

South-West side? Hotel and fitness club, conference centre.
North-West side? Markham Civic Centre, Markham Theatre, Unionville High
North-East side? A gigantic plaza that, while car oriented, still has plenty of shops that would be useful to people who want to take transit as well.

But no, instead the transitways skip Warden, and Viva turns off Highway 7 at Town Centre Blvd as if there's a good reason to take a "short cut" behind the Hilton. There isn't even a stop there!

</rant>

Anyways, I'm pretty sure that this transitway is not going to be the start and end for any routes. A route will start at Markham Center, and travel down to the transitway to continue its journey once it's out of the "urban" area. You won't have to take local service to get there. That would be pathetic.

Blame the Warden & 7 mess on the planned success of Downtown Markham, which will come at the expense of the success of Markham Centre, whose failure will trigger the failure of Downtown Markham......oh dear, I've gone cross-eyed

Viva pretty much has to dip south to hit the GO station, while most of the area's vacant land is south of 7, also supporting a southward shift in where the bulk of downtown (and the transit line) would end up. If Viva ran along 7 and the GO station was moved closer to 7, Warden & 7 could have been the centre of downtown Markham, but it'd be worse for GO buses and the office parks nestled against the 407 wouldn't be very close to transit. This is what happens when you plan new downtowns instead of develop existing ones...something's gotta give.