407 Rail Freight Bypass/The Missing Link

[Allandale25]

^ I'll post the video later where they study it. Phil said that no money in the world could make CP bend on this issue as it's there main corridor. That's why they are looking at the Fergus Sub. But I'm paraphrasing there. Best to watch the video.

 

[robmausser]

^ I'll post the video later where they study it. Phil said that no money in the world could make CP bend on this issue as it's there main corridor. That's why they are looking at the Fergus Sub. But I'm paraphrasing there. Best to watch the video.

Fergus would only help Cambridge though, not the rest of the Milton Line. See purple

The only way I could see offering all day service without the missing link to Milton is to add another track, or convert the Transitway into a high capacity, high speed LRT (a la GO ALRT), completing the section between erin mills and City Centre, an extension along the 407 to Lisgar, and continuing down and along the Etobicoke hydro corridor at the other end. Then users could transfer at the Eglinton West LRT, Kipling GO/subway. It would be less than ideal IMO.

 

[Allandale25]

^ Indeed. My sense from the video is that while informal discussion continue, it's not a priority because CP won't budge. Despite the heckling from an earlier questioner who worked for CP that there is more than enough capacity, CTC, etc and that CP just wants money from taxpayers.

 

[Bytor]

Verster was also talking about not just upgrading track (because some of it is old and unrepaired so the speed limit was reduced instead of repairing) but building new track, too. It seemed to me like the implication was the new track would be used for passenger rail only.

 

[Bytor]

^ Indeed. My sense from the video is that while informal discussion continue, it's not a priority because CP won't budge. Despite the heckling from an earlier questioner who worked for CP that there is more than enough capacity, CTC, etc and that CP just wants money from taxpayers.

Don't tell that to the two older gentleman from Cambridge who were there last night. ;-)

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Phil repeated at the town hall yesterday why Metrolinx moved away from the bypass. Basically it would have taken too long to build and been too complicated. He also claimed that the new infrastructure that can be added to the CN Halton Sub to give the same outcome that the bypass would have. The part that wasn't mentioned was whether CN would allow electrification west of Bramalea.

^ I'll post the video later where they study it. Phil said that no money in the world could make CP bend on this issue as it's there main corridor. That's why they are looking at the Fergus Sub. But I'm paraphrasing there. Best to watch the video.

The archilles heel of the bypass (in its original form, with both CN and CP using it) was that east of Halwest, CN would need to share that routing with CP to get them to their Mactier and Belleville subdivisions. The only reason it was logjammed, and subsequently settled to be a CN-only corridor, was because CN didn't want that. I don't pretend to know the details as to why, but CN saw that as some kind of significant threat, and CP saw some benefit (competitiveness? operational risk?). The fact that Metrolinx is bailing hard on it tells me that the government sided with CN, and gave the directive.

Not arguing that upgrades to the Kitchener corridor aren't worthwhile or more expensive, though. Just that it won't be easy. The main challenges are a fly-over/under required somewhere, and widening through Brampton GO. The former can be done if the right location is found, the latter will be complex as hell.

Mississauga is still the big loser here as there's no upgrades for the Milton line and there's some attitude of 'welp, there's nothing we can do at this point.' Didn't we have a discussion previously that Metrolinx could simply relocate platforms on the south side of the corridor, eliminating need for a fly-over/under? Is that not being explored along with corridor widening?

edit: clarification (in bold)

 

[Bytor]

Didn't we have a discussion previously that Metrolinx could simply relocate platforms on the south side of the corridor, eliminating need for a fly-over/under?

ISTM that there's got to be a flyover somewhere. The CN rail comes up from the south and intersects the Metrolinx track at around Georgetown, and than after Bramalea the CN track heads to the north while Metrolinx goes south.

 

[Allandale25]

^ And Phil mentioned the flyover/under last night. I'll post the video to that section when it's up. Meanwhile, on the now dead topic of the bypass, this passage from this media article:

Verster stressed that Metrolinx's abandonment of a plan to build a $4 billion to $5 billion freight bypass was a sign of its commitment to improve service to Kitchener, not a sign that it was less committed. Instead of building a very expensive bypass that would take years, Metrolinx negotiated with CN to build smaller "passing loops" to relieve bottlenecks along the line, he said.

"We don't have to build the freight bypass and we can get the services to Kitchener sooner," Verster said.

 

[crs1026]

^The flyover concept was part of the original BCA for RER, see Appendix A4. The bypass came after that document was released.

There were comments from CN objecting to giving CP an ‘advantage’ by putting them on the CN routing. I’m not sure that there was truly anything favourable about that change, but that’s how CN saw thiings.

I have seen comments that suggested that CP wasn’t keen about the bypass either, because the connections to the Mactier Sub around Islington and Steeles were difficult, limiting CP’s ability to route trains and swap blocks between Montreal- Chicago and Toronto-Vancouver lines.

I’m not sure those comments reflected anything material, beyond railways’ typical preference for the devil they know, and/or lobbying for every possible bit of compensation from the taxpayer. Ontario has never had deep enough pockets to buy out both CN and CP, so the bypass, while a darn good idea, never really was grounded in an achievable reality. Maybe our grandchildren will make it happen.

- Paul

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Mississauga is still the big loser here, as there's some attitude of 'welp, there's nothing we can do at this point.' Didn't we have a discussion previously that Metrolinx could simply relocate platforms on the south side of the corridor, eliminating need for a fly-over/under? Is that not being explored along with corridor widening?

^ And Phil mentioned the flyover/under last night. I'll post the video to that section when it's up. Meanwhile, on the now dead topic of the bypass, this passage from this media article:

^The flyover concept was part of the original BCA for RER, see Appendix A4. The bypass came after that document was released.

There were comments from CN objecting to giving CP an ‘advantage’ by putting them on the CN routing. I’m not sure that there was truly anything favourable about that change, but that’s how CN saw thiings.

I have seen comments that suggested that CP wasn’t keen about the bypass either, because the connections to the Mactier Sub around Islington and Steeles were difficult, limiting CP’s ability to route trains and swap blocks between Montreal- Chicago and Toronto-Vancouver lines.

I’m not sure those comments reflected anything material, beyond railways’ typical preference for the devil they know, and/or lobbying for every possible bit of compensation from the taxpayer. Ontario has never had deep enough pockets to buy out both CN and CP, so the bypass, while a darn good idea, never really was grounded in an achievable reality. Maybe our grandchildren will make it happen.

- Paul

I'm sorry everyone, I'm a tool and didn't clarify that this comment was in respect to the Milton line.

 

[Allandale25]

Mississauga is still the big loser here as there's no upgrades for the Milton line and there's some attitude of 'welp, there's nothing we can do at this point.' Didn't we have a discussion previously that Metrolinx could simply relocate platforms on the south side of the corridor, eliminating need for a fly-over/under? Is that not being explored along with corridor widening?

edit: clarification (in bold)

Some may argue Mississauga's already winning because of the upgrades/electrification/GO ownership of the LSW line...(and the Hurontario LRT).

 

[crs1026]

I'm sorry everyone, I'm a tool and didn't clarify that this comment was in respect to the Milton line.

Verster made a comment or two during the Cambridge GO discussion that leads me to believe that he is well aware of the heavy unmet demand on the Milton line... and that GO has pushed CP as far as it can, unsuccessfully. The question is, what lever does ML have to force CP to do more? I can’t think of one, beyond very large amounts of money. (He discounted that one). I’m willing to accept that ML has tried in a serious and concerted way.

The Big Move strategy has never given Milton much priority. It appears ML has always been willing to park Milton expansion for some future decade. I can’t say that is “unfair”, given that both LSW and Kitchener are slated for investment.... if any more were spent in Halton/Peel, it would be by taking money from other projects in the GTA. I would have to reread the BCA to form a view if the numbers are pointing differently. The point for the Milton debate will be when Ford announces the subway to Square One..... Milton GO expansion will be cheaper, and serve more people better, than that election promise.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

^ From what I recall of the initial BCA for the Milton Line, under the six scenarios, even the one with the smallest service increase with the least amount of new third track, still had a notation that CP would have to agree.

 

[Bytor]

^ And Phil mentioned the flyover/under last night. I'll post the video to that section when it's up. Meanwhile, on the now dead topic of the bypass, this passage from this media article:

I think the passing loops were from Georgetown→Kitchener and were instead of building double tracks all the way. He mentioned Acton station while talking about that. So that's not something they need to negotiate with CN.

 

[cbrown2009]

But I thought some time ago that ML had a agreed-to plan in place to fully build out a two track corridor parallel to CP’s tracks on which it could move GO ops (stations etc), including a crossover/flyover. It was expensive but could feasibly be done.