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2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

JasonParis said:
Hypothetical situation...

What are people's thoughts if a Mayor Tory announced that Sheppard East won't be continued due to hopes that the subway will eventually be extended instead. In return, the Finch LRT will be fully-built from Finch (on the Yonge line) all the way to Humber College?
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I would consider downgrading Sheppard East from LRT to BRT, and using the saved funds to extend Finch LRT from Keele to Yonge.

BRT on Sheppard East would immediately help people who live in the east end and rely on transit, and at the same time, retain hopes of building express rail along Sheppard in the longer term.

Plus, Sheppard East BRT can integrate with the Durham Pulse LRT. Some buses can start at Don Mills subway, travel along Sheppard to Midland or Brimley, then turn south, serve STC, and then run along Ellesmere and Kingston Rd into Durham.

Though, I am not sure what is the expected peak ridership on Sheppard East, with Scarborough Subway intercepting some riders at McCowan. If it is within 2,000 pphpd at any time, BRT will work well. If it is between 2,000 and 3,000 during the peak, BRT with artic buses still can work but LRT would be more labor-efficient (up to 300 passengers per driver in LRT, vs 120 in BRT). If it is more than 3,000 pphpd, BRT may not be viable.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
BRT won't save any money on Sheppard East. BRT is more expensive to operate than LRT.
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Well, kinda.

BRT can save money (or LRT can be done much cheaper) by having the Don Mills stop on the surface and not widening the bridge or tunnelling below the 404; operate in mixed traffic or reassign them as Bus/Tram only.

This, of course, has a severe penalty on the transfer which was to be extremely easy and will greatly reduce the speed if mixed traffic is chosen.
 
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rbt said:
Well, kinda.

BRT can save money (or LRT can be done much cheaper) by having the Don Mills stop on the surface and not widening the bridge or tunnelling below the 404; operate in mixed traffic or reassign them as Bus/Tram only.

This, of course, has a severe penalty on the transfer which was to be extremely easy and will greatly reduce the speed if mixed traffic is chosen.
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Those things can also happen with rail vehicles.

The fundamental advantages of rail are:
- larger vehicles and multi unit trains
- can operate in smaller tunnels & elevated structures than buses
- more comfortable/smoother ride

The fundamental advantages of tires are pretty obvious (can run without tracks & on regular roads).

If you care about having a large vehicle for larger capacity or having a smooth ride, or part or all of the route is in a narrow tunnel or elevated, then you go with rail.

Articles:
sorting out rail-bus differences
http://www.humantransit.org/2011/02/sorting-out-rail-bus-differences.html
http://www.humantransit.org/2011/03/rail-bus-differences-contd.html
 
rbt said:
Well, kinda.

BRT can save money (or LRT can be done much cheaper) by having the Don Mills stop on the surface and not widening the bridge or tunnelling below the 404; operate in mixed traffic or reassign them as Bus/Tram only.

This, of course, has a severe penalty on the transfer which was to be extremely easy and will greatly reduce the speed if mixed traffic is chosen.
Click to expand...

BRT cannot beat LRT on operation cost. BRT can beat LRT on construction cost.

You need to look at a 20-40 year cycle between capital cost and operation cost to see the real difference. One big unknown item over this time frame is what fuel cost will be as well hydro cost down the road. If you did, this is where the real saving comes into play.

The cost of building an BRT vs LRT can play a roll in the final 20-40 year cycle if BRT is to win.

You can have light BRT on the road today which is more of an express bus not in its own ROW. Brampton and Mississauga are doing this today.

Norfolk VA is looking at building an 3 mile extension to the Tide to get it to the beach front of Virginia Beach at a cost of $325 million including the cost to buy more cars. They are hoping to have 2,250 riders a day within in 20 years and that blows me away for having an LRT in the first place. I didn't realize my last stop on my ride on the Tide was only 3 miles from the beach since it was an 18 mile drive by car from the beach to Norfolk. Ridership was none existing on my trips. That last part of my trip was at about 90kmph. No density along the line.
 
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I can't believe JT wants to build a subway on Eglinton West. What is with these so called "fiscal conservatives" wanting to throw away so much of our money on these wasteful transportation projects?
 
Despite Chow's showing, there are still people who don't believe that long distance commutes are a priority to voters.

Oh well.

The public at large cares about commute times. They'll vote for the politician ego gives them that. First, they were convinced that Rob Ford would give them subways. Now they are convinced John Tory will give them a suburban rail line and a subway extension in Scarborough.

The problem with Chow's DRL push is that it doesn't happen fast enough. Smart Track is seductive, meanwhile, exactly because the public believes it is viable.

This kind of voting will keep happening even after the first LRTs come into service. Eventually transit advocates and the chattering classes might just begin to understand that the voters actually care about getting home sooner and not about some urban development vision.

Just calling it like is.....
 
kEiThZ said:
This kind of voting will keep happening even after the first LRTs come into service. Eventually transit advocates and the chattering classes might just begin to understand that the voters actually care about getting home sooner and not about some urban development vision.

Just calling it like is.....
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment (even if I would like to use these opportunities for some of that urban development vision) but that is why LRTs are being proposed for certain transit corridors. LRTs need to stop being treated as some lower class form of transit and need to start being treated as a viable form of transit for certain routes, and a faster, more reliable and cozier alternative to buses.

I think the opening of Eglinton will do wonders for the image of LRTs in the city, and soon after we will be wanting to put LRTs everywhere.
 
WislaHD said:
I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment (even if I would like to use these opportunities for some of that urban development vision) but that is why LRTs are being proposed for certain transit corridors. LRTs need to stop being treated as some lower class form of transit and need to start being treated as a viable form of transit for certain routes, and a faster, more reliable and cozier alternative to buses.

I think the opening of Eglinton will do wonders for the image of LRTs in the city, and soon after we will be wanting to put LRTs everywhere.
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I think its because 1/2 of it (the part that will be used the most) is underground
 
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