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1 St Thomas (Lee Development, 29s, Stern)

What's your opinion of 1 St. Thomas?


  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
This entrance is lacking for so many more reasons than chipped concrete. Heck, the entire thing looks like it was ordered from a cheap parts catalogue for prefab warehouses and storage containers (although the doorhandles on the main doors look decent).

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I doubt that the sight of a bit of chipped precast at 22 Wellesley will send buyers rushing to 1 St Thomas in droves.

Considering the price difference between the two buildings I doubt buyers would be running in that direction.

re:22 Wellesley

The poor craftsmanship should serve as a warning signal to purchasers. With the lack of attention to detail on the outside I would hate to see what lies hidden behind the pre-cast walls of this structure.
 
15 CPW Stern Building Reaction

Read this thread with interest after reading Michael Gross' excellent article on Stern's new New York building, 15 Central Park West in the NY Observer. http:nyobserver.com/2007/15-cpw?page=0%2C0

Gross is the author of 740 Park: The Story of the World’s Richest Apartment Building, and is certainly a fan of 15 CPW, as are many other New Yorkers.

Now, whether 1 St. Thomas compares in anyway to 15 CPW (certainly doesn't in terms of budget and ammenities) is debatable. But would love to hear people's thoughts on 15 CPW versus our new Stern Building. Do you think the fact that the close proximity of the buildings that 15 CPW pays tribute to makes it more worthy? And would your disdain for 1 St. Thomas be mitigated if it was paying tribute or homage to a particluar Bloor-Yorkville aesthetic? Just curious.
15cpw50_1.jpg


http://15cpw.com/home.html
 
The pretentiously bloated entrance to 1 St Thomas looks like it was lifted from some Palladian Home Depot catalogue circa 1580 - one shudders to think what faux nightmares lie inside. It's easy to see why someone connected to the world we actually live in would be more comfortable with the contemporary honesty of 22 Wellesley, chipped precast and all.
 
"It's easy to see why someone connected to the world we actually live in would be more comfortable with the contemporary honesty of 22 Wellesley, chipped precast and all."

The problem with so much of the contemporary stuff is that you just can't tell how long it will look "contemporary" - 5 years, 10 years? I think of Bellagio and that building at Bay & Charles (SE corner). They looked contemporary 7-8 years ago but already seem passe. Face it, its hard to be cutting edge, most creative works fail over time. While 1 St Thomas is a modern interpretation of a neo-classical/deco theme its not going to age as fast as so much of what you see as modern. Buildings shouldn't be equated with all that crappy ultra-modern furniture and flatware than can be easily thrown in the garbage after 5 years. Its real estate, you're stuck with it, so you're better off being more conservative.

Ultra-modern is fine for the pedestrian who can change his view and preference on a whim, abandoning one building for the next favorite; not so easy for the owner.

I predicty that 18 Yorkville (which I like) will look pretty pedestrian in 15 years. 1 St thomas will "look" exactly the same from a taste perspective - in other words still great.
 
contemporary honesty = cheap, ugly and non-designed materials? I hope not.

Defending this ugliness does much disservice to modernism and does nothing for the cause.

I just walked past the entrance to Element, Tridel's new building on Front and Peter. I was pleasantly surprised: a nice use of glass, metal and stone that looked refined, modern and nicely detailed (the rest of ground level and the building, is not that well done). I will defend that any day over the entrance to 1 St. Thomas. I will not waste my time defending 22 Wellesley's entrance using jargon like "contemporary honesty."
 
But would love to hear people's thoughts on 15 CPW versus our new Stern Building. Do you think the fact that the close proximity of the buildings that 15 CPW pays tribute to makes it more worthy?

Somewhat paradoxically, I find Manhattan to be more forgiving for architects than Toronto. I don’t mean in terms of budgets or public perception, but because the rules have already been written on how a building must go up, whether explicitly due to building regulations or implicitly to add to one of the world’s most identifiable cityscapes. As a result, architects have less freedom to work within the New York landscape, but also don't have a need to create landmark buildings because the Manhattan cityscape is a landmark in and of itself. In New York – especially on CPW - no building really pays tribute to one another but rather they all sort of aspire to that same overarching Gotham ideal. Robert AM Stern has done this, but so have all architects who have built in New York, including men with fantastic egos like FLW and Mies. The Guggenheim museum and the Seagram building would look out of place in another city.
In Toronto, really anything goes, so architects have a lot of liberty to design whatever they want, as long as they can work with puny Canadian budgets. Since buildings in Toronto can be seen from many vantage points and don’t aspire to an ideal cityscape, they have to be more visually arresting as individual objects than in New York.

Anyway, 1 St. Thomas was a hard corner to work with – even by Toronto standards - and it, in particular, demanded a landmark. It was prominent, especially because the U of T campus effectively cut off anything of similar height from crowding it out to the immediate south and west. I think Stern's design works really well, especially seen from King’s College circle, because it draws attention to the building which looms just a little lower than the overpowering Manulife centre. It softens up the Manulife centre and the point tower profile makes it feel like it’s trying to soar taller than its obviously taller brother. Sort of a David versus Goliath in Midtown Toronto. Before 9/11 Cesar Pelli’s World Financial Center towers had the same effect on the WTC as 1 St. Thomas has on Manulife.

From up close, however, 1 St. Thomas sort of falls flat and the exterior details feel a little oversized. I'm not against historical elements popping up in architecture, but they work a little better when things are more in scale with human proportions. This really is a building that is meant to anchor the skyline from a distance.
 
Great points, Hipster Duck. Only issue I'd quibble with is that 15 CPW is really the first major building to go up on either CPW or 5th since the 30s, I believe, and Stern's building certainly pays tribute to the buildings of that era.

On a somewhat related note, did Toronto ever have a stretch of "grand" apartments (our (modest approximation) of 5th Ave/Park or CPW)? And if so, what became of it?
 
The idea that by ordering deluxe parts that scream "I am not cheap!" from the Palladian Home Depot Catalogue you can create buildings that are timeless is a myth. What you end up with are pretentious faux buildings that can easily be pinpointed to the time in which they were built. buildup, tellingly, uses the word "taste" to describe the essence of the marketing ploy behind this "timeless" style snobbery.

By contrast, well designed contemporary buildings will always honestly reflect the age in which they were built - and be treasured for it. Bellagio always struck me as second rate, in much the same way as the Met does, and shouldn't be held up as an example of innovative excellence.

One can only pray that 18 Yorkville will be considered "pedestrian" in 15 years. What a fabulous city we'll be living in then!
 
Thanks, balmoral.

Only issue I'd quibble with is that 15 CPW is really the first major building to go up on either CPW or 5th since the 30s, I believe

The Time Warner Center was another good addition to CPW, even if it's on Columbus Circle. On 5th, there are a few landmarks like Edward Durrel Stone's General Motors building and Trump Plaza (crass). Further down on 5th at 42nd street, there is an interesting retro-futurist Michael Graves tower that just went up a few years ago.

On a somewhat related note, did Toronto ever have a stretch of "grand" apartments (our (modest approximation) of 5th Ave/Park or CPW)? And if so, what became of it?

No, the closest we ever had was that stretch of Avenue road immediately south of St. Clair and it always felt a little short and too much like a highway. Our opportunities to make grand apartment boulevards all fell flat: Jarvis street and University avenue would have both been good candidates but the first one has a bad reputation and the second one was hijacked by hospitals. I'm holding out for Mount Pleasant avenue now.
 
Balmoral - possibly the grandest apartment building in Toronto of a certain age would be the - Balmoral.

How do you come by your handle? Are you a resident perchance? A not-so-secret admirer maybe?

42
 
Grand, yes. Dave LeBlanc did an article in the Globe a couple of Friday's ago on the architect responsible for the Balmoral's new faux-faux-Tudor parking complex.

He describes it as, "a minor victory for the neighbourhood, since this could have been yet another glass box." So, it's obvious where Dave's stylistic sympathies lie in this particular case, but also interesting in the light of the brief detour this thread took in searching for examples of local art deco apartment buildings - and not searching for faux Tudor and faux Georgian buildings built at the same time.
 
Shocker said:

"buildup, tellingly, uses the word "taste" to describe the essence of the marketing ploy behind this "timeless" style snobbery."

My actual quote:

"I predict that 18 Yorkville (which I like) will look pretty pedestrian in 15 years. 1 St thomas will "look" exactly the same from a taste perspective - in other words still great"

Shocker your keying on my use of the word "taste" sort of highlights your sensitivity to the whole issue. What I obviously meant by "taste" is that if you like 1 St Thomas in 2007, you'll like it in 2027. If you like one of the modernist buillding today, you may not like it in 20 years because "tastes" change.

You're startin' to sound like an NDPer. I hope its not the price of the units that rankles you so.
 

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