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1 St Thomas (Lee Development, 29s, Stern)

What's your opinion of 1 St. Thomas?


  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .
As I've pointed out several times on this thread, Tewder, classical revival was of its time, culturally, but we're not living in the eighteenth century any more. I've never said there is anything wrong with being inspired by the past, merely that nobody in Toronto's creative community is apparently channelling Vitruvius or Phideus these days.

...but this is my point exactly: the fact that there are people in Toronto now who are channeling modernism and deco (in all artistic mediums) implies that there is something in those styles that is 'of our time' now, culturally, in the same way that there was something in the revivalism of classical Greece that was clearly of the time of the Georgians.


There's no actual law against producing faux - it is the comfortable and nostalgic architectural comfort food of our day - but why make a fetish of trying to pass it off as something more important than it is? To all intents and purposes it is irrelevant as a creative force, and Zephyr is right to question the legitimacy of the form of "revival" that 1 St Thomas represents

...but then Clewes is 'comfort food' too, as you say of Stern. Clewes' revisiting of the aesthetics of modernism is nothing original and says no more about us now than does the work of Stern who is merely revisiting yet another past aesthetic. Again, no crime. I love the work of Clewes in the city, but as a pure architectural form (which is to say devoid of any cultural connotations) it doesn't say anything more than was already said more eloquantly and with more originality, by Mies et al.

None of this is to say that one may not legitimately and fairly prefer Clewes, as indeed I most certainly do. What I, and others here, are arguing is that to justify the liking of one over the other on the basis of originality is problematic as in fact, at heart, they are both inspired by the aesthetics of previous eras.
 
Modernism is not the only alternative to Stern - cutting edge is off the map at this time - unclassified and in the making.

Is Calatrava a Modernist, or even neo-Modernist? What about that changing label that is now generically called Organic architecture, applied to such people as Jeanne Gang? CoopHimmelBlau is more like Gehry and Gehry is what? Zaha Hadid is in the mix but how would her buildings be labeled? And what about the cutting-edge of an eccentric, such as Alsop?

That Toronto reduction in this forum to Clewes vs Stern is not a broad enough palette even for the well known. And it further misses the mark by putting all of the argument into what is perceived to be a restatement of the past in both camps. Post Modernist and Modern Traditioinalist architecture tried to embrace the past, unsuccessfully in my view, as a way of rejecting the rules of the game of what went before. The fact that what is being labeled Modernism, has its date of origin somewhere around World War I, does not mean that those who have extended it into the present are doing the same thing as the Revivalists, the Post Modernists or even Modern Traditionalists. This is an externalised argument that ignores content - and ends up making essentially major differences look like minor detail.

I am reminded of Le Corbusier, whose book Vers Une Architecture is often translated as Towards a New Architecture. Where is that word 'New' used in the original title? Le Corbusier was attempting to create Architecture that would speak to an epoch, not to momentary change in perspective. He wanted to incorporate change by exploring the transformation of mass through the creative use of geometric form, but without the decorative appliques from the past to mis-direct the effort away from its purist expression. Moreover, Corbu did not desire to create buildings that could not be reinterpreted by another architect in a later time. Now that was the revolutionary idea that emerged above all the rest of it, including the rules that are no longer necessary to best accomplish this idea.

If we look at it this way, maybe without Modernism we wouldn't have the cutting edge we have today. Doesn't matter that much of it doesn't even look like Modernism anymore. But try to build a vibrant architecture based on looking back and it won't be long before you find yourself at a dead end. I prefer something that represents a more adaptive architecture that fits our age, or an age that can be anticipated - not false nostalgia or sentimental recollections of what never was. It matters to me that this be good, solid architecture, but it matters not that it is either a form of Modernism, or something more correctly re-assigned to the cutting edge.
 
Post Modernist and Modern Traditioinalist architecture tried to embrace the past, unsuccessfully in my view, as a way of rejecting the rules of the game of what went before.

But will that mean that 50 years from now, it'll be consequently rejected as a "failure"? I'd just as well place my bets on it being viewed more benignly, the way that something postwar-retardataire such as the Bay & King Bank of Nova Scotia is today. (Though granted, one thing which'd mightily help its being "viewed benignly" is if it becomes viewed as a stylistic artifact of a past age and sensibility in its own right--the problem with so much argument for PoMo Traditionalism is its pompous pretense to *timelessness*, i.e. it'll supposedly *never* be a stylistic artifact. In this light, the aesthetic's very "un-success" just might wind up its own best friend; and *in spite of* its proponents. That's why I like to invoke the spectre of folly and vanity in hypothesizing future "heritage" qualities.)

Funny; I had searched upon this blog today, and was reminded of *how* unlikeably Blimp-pompous the realm of Modern Traditionalism can be--to the point of even inadvertently insulting everything that it embraces, past and present. Still, that sensibility might paraphrase you by stating that "Brutalist architecture tried to embrace the present, unsuccessfully in my view, as a way of rejecting the rules of the game of what went before". I'd rather seek a farsighted, daredevilish way of bridging that gap.

A curious thing to consider about Stern is that this isn't his first work in Toronto; he's done at least a couple of private residences...yet if he's such a figure of importance and his work is so exemplary, why hasn't his other Toronto work been singled out as a place of architectural pilgrimage? Why aren't they being "sought out" the way that, say, Shim-Sutcliffe dwellings are? Why've they sunk into comparative anonymity among design pilgrims and their ilk? Maybe that's sending a message--no, not about Modernist biases, but about the fundamental dead-endedness of Stern traditionalism; a world of such feigned timelessness is a world of entropy. If Stern's houses get demolished, who'll care; there won't be a DoCoTradMo to stick up for them...
 
Very thoughful adma.

I'm not sure how to react to this because it throws one off in the first paragraph, before getting back on track at the end.

As I have said several times, Stern will at best be a footnote to history if I were to project him into the future. But his buildings will not one and all disappear. The one in New York, 15 Central Park West, will probably always have its supporters - the nature of the beast. One St. Thomas may get the same bum's rush as much of Old Toronto - good and bad, heritage worthy or not.

If nothing else you have introduced a thought that is new in this thread, I hope it gets more of a reaction than a passing glance.
 
I agree that posting images of this building and asking, "What's not to like?" is asking for trouble - so I shan't go there either.

I wholeheartedly agree with Zephyr's point, that Toronto's neo-Modernists are doing something quite different from the post-Modernist / Modern Traditionalist / fauxmongers like Stern, with their sit-down-with-the-client-and-flip-through-the-Sears-catalogue-of-styles approach to "design". Given the strength of Toronto's post-WW2 Modernist roots, and the obvious direct evolution from that foundation that the work of our best contemporary local neo-Modernist architects represents ( and their consistent, unwavering disinclination to dip into that Sears catalogue of other styles! ), it's pretty clear that Tewder's charge - that Stern and Clewes are both doing the same thing - misses the point.
 
Not a big fan of faux in general, but going past the building yesterday, one has to acknowledge the quality of the work - which is superb, and the general fit with the neighbourhood. If one wants to do faux, do it this way - instead of those silly balls on the column nonsense.

AoD
 
This forum is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product: the truth, for all time. Some think 1 St. Thomas is revolting revival-revival, some think it's a revolutionary revelation. The truth lies somewhere in between, but since this is the internet, it takes a flamewar for the crucible to work properly.
 
As I have said several times, Stern will at best be a footnote to history if I were to project him into the future. But his buildings will not one and all disappear. The one in New York, 15 Central Park West, will probably always have its supporters - the nature of the beast. One St. Thomas may get the same bum's rush as much of Old Toronto - good and bad, heritage worthy or not.

And likewise, the Bank of Nova Scotia might be deemed a "footnote to history", esp. compared to Mies at TD, et al. Yet...
0900293_1_300.jpg

...what's not to like?

Get my drift?
 
I wholeheartedly agree with Zephyr's point, that Toronto's neo-Modernists are doing something quite different from the post-Modernist / Modern Traditionalist / fauxmongers like Stern, with their sit-down-with-the-client-and-flip-through-the-Sears-catalogue-of-styles approach to "design".

...and how original is the Clewes approach of flipping through Wallpaper for the latest style and fashion trends? The irony here, in a Toronto that is nostalgic for mid-century modernism, the architect who may most be charged with pandering to the prevailing 'tastes' is in fact Clewes and not Stern whose work in fact eschews the style dictums of fashionistas, hipsters and whichever other "Toronto Life" neologism one can think of...

In the same way that the modernism of Clewes is not a complete rip off of the past (and again I find myself in the odd position of having to argue against somebody whose work I very much like!!), the deco of Stern is not a complete reproduction either.

Given the strength of Toronto's post-WW2 Modernist roots, and the obvious direct evolution from that foundation that the work of our best contemporary local neo-Modernist architects represents ( and their consistent, unwavering disinclination to dip into that Sears catalogue of other styles! ), it's pretty clear that Tewder's charge - that Stern and Clewes are both doing the same thing - misses the point.

I don't see why this is clear US. How can you argue that the work of Clewes is cutting edge if you're arguing that it has a long and historic/cultural precedence in Toronto that goes back to the mid-twentieth century? Wouldn't the more unique work be something that is not so well represented here?
 
Is Calatrava a Modernist, or even neo-Modernist? What about that changing label that is now generically called Organic architecture, applied to such people as Jeanne Gang? CoopHimmelBlau is more like Gehry and Gehry is what? Zaha Hadid is in the mix but how would her buildings be labeled? And what about the cutting-edge of an eccentric, such as Alsop?


I think we can all agree that we'd like to see more of those architects you mention represented in Toronto!! No question.
 
If any of these faux buildings were examples of anything new being done with styles dredged up from the past - if they were in any way connected to the spirit of our times and reflected it - they'd surely win some critical acclaim for doing so and we'd know about it. But they're a product of marketing culture, not design, and for the most part they're ignored as irrelevant when buildings are celebrated by organizations representing the local design and architectural communities. Under these circumstances, Tewder's weak "the deco of Stern is not a complete reproduction" is probably closer than most reasonable people would dare go in claiming significance for this sort of thing.
 
But they're a product of marketing culture, not design, and for the most part they're ignored as irrelevant when buildings are celebrated by organizations representing the local design and architectural communities.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, "they're" would've been commonly applied to Uno Prii apartment buildings. (Though of course, they were "contemporary", not "faux"--or maybe the more proper slur might've been "faux contemporary".)
 

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